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I contend that GRAW PC will be a jolly good game.


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Lets narrow it down to this, PC games are the place to be when it comes to games that demand high realism and tactics. Hence look at the size of those driving, flying, sailing, and miltary sims' instruction books.

My biggest fear with this installment of GR was the "look" of a console game. (Hence: look at Rainbow Six-Lockdown <_<) If I wanted to play a console game, I would play a console game. :nono:

As we have all seen, GRAW DEFINATELY isn't a console game. Thank you GRIN eternally for this. I don't think it would of been the case if Red Storm got a hold of GRAW. (Hence: look at Rainbow Six-Lockdown <_<)

I feel that there will always be a place for PC games. I just wish they we're as cool and exciting as they used to be before I owned a PC. Some of you might know what I'm talking about.

But for now.............give us a DEMO...... :P

Cheers!

Fresh

Edited by Freshmixture
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For the record, my Papyrus NASCAR Racing 2003 Season manual is 70 pages including credits and blank pages for user notes. My iL2: Forgotten Battles Gold Pack user manual is 68 pages.

LoMac has a 50 page manual and MS FS 2004 has a 29 page manual. Granted, there are some that have larger manuals, but most times, they aren't printed any more and are included on the CD in a .pdf file.

Just because a game is a simulation doesn't mean that it will have a big manual, especially since devs or publishers are trying to save money here and there. Stuff has to fit in a smaller box or a DVD case nowadays and the manuals that Jane's used to create will not fit in them.

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It' not that we think console gamers will switch to pc's because they can use a controller. It's the opposite. A mouse on a console would have a large number of PC dedicated players giving it a chance. I personally would have bought an Xbox to play GR2 if it had a mouse. It didn't so i didn't.

Apart from lack of a mouse, the 'only' think stopping me from being a console gamer is the approach to game design. Ok in movie versions do this. PC = Terminator1/2, Robocop, Saving private Ryan, Pulp Fiction etc . . . Consoles = Armageddon, Con Air, The Rock, Godzilla. Not easy at first to notice the difference but there is a huge one.

If the console world would make as many PC like games as they do cookie cutter bell and whistle games then ver many of us would switch.

I can't believe it when people declare that there is no fundamental difference or philosophy to game design between consoles and the PC.

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Then explain GR1, same design on a console as on PC. Ever hear of OFP: Elite on Xbox? Since you don't touch consoles you wouldn't know its the same as OFP on the PC. Stop with the console bashing already, it's tiring, and repetitive. You may want to read the pinned post on the subject.

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NYR i have often cited OpFlash Elite as an exception to the rule.

GR1 on console became GR2 then GRAW. it still holds out a bit but has been infected with consolitus.

OpFlash was a bold experiment. I hope it sold well. Even when an empire takes over a nation and converts that nation to it's way of doing things as the console world is changing many pc games like 'Lockdown' there is some backwash of influence. Look at the Brits, favorite food is Indian.

So sure some Console games get the pc treatment. But not enough to win me over.

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Btw, some driving sims needs tons of processing power, actual PC processors are at their limit and programmers have to simplify physics, many of them are waiting for PPU's for getting a step futher, don't think that a good sim with many cars (Richard Burns Rally simulate one car at a time) could run on a console.

The x360 has 10ghz of pure power, plus a lot more than that would imply in actual effectiveness...

you my friend are wrong....three processors doesnt mean its 10 Ghz, it means a bit stronger than 3.2Ghz, maybe 4Ghz-4.5Ghz

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well poita, havnt you changed your tune.

Earlier on in the piece you were probably the biggest pain in the a.rse this forum had seen in a while.

Every 2nd post in this section was you needlessly bagging rse/grin/ubi. Uneducated opinions plastered all over the place, with a common thread of "teh ubi suxrz, im not buying graw". Anyone that told you to have faith or calm down was met with a tryraid of "why hate the haters" abuse. Any positive news from the dev camp was met with contempt and suspicion.

Let this be a lesson to you little forum children, your not always right.

Dan, do not aim insults directly at other forum users please, that's not nice.

Thanks, Rocky.

Edited by Rocky
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  Ironically their biggest impediment is their refusal to cater to certain pc sensibilities. I would actually love to be a console player if they just would include a mouse and also design games with pc sensibilities. I get to sit on the couch in front of a massive hd tv. Don't have to worry about upgrades for at least four years. Whats not to like.

And there you have it...in a nutshell, the BIGGEST reason why PC games and console games differ so dramatically is the control model.

How can you possibly think that? Do you really think a simple interface device is the reason why there are more PC players on the PC side of the GR.net site (as an example)?

You know you can buy all sorts of console style game controlers for PCs. Are the console guys rushing over to play PC versions of the same games that are on their consoles? The biggest reason why console players and PC players don't go switching over to the other platform has to do with their preference in games. It is all about the games and the style of the games. It has nothing to do with game version or hardware, playng on a platform of choice depends on whether or not you like the games.

silent_op

Yes, I honestly DO believe what I wrote...as shocking as it may seem.

Since the PC control model allows for so much more complexity, the PC games can be more complex. Console games, on the flip side, have to be pared down to their basics in order to fit the control model of their respective console.

I played NHL 2005 on the PC with a Microsoft controller that was "minus a few buttons". I had to pare down my options during game play because my "control model" was less flexible than the originally intended model.

The same holds true with games crossing platforms.

Personally, I didn't play GR on a console...ever...for any reason. I saw no need to do so. After all, I was enjoying the game on it's intended platform, why bother with the diluted format?

But I have seen a rash of diluted games comming out in recent years. Games which are obviously intended to be (or originally were) ports. The game play was unrealistic, the options limited.

But, control model is only one facet of the issue. The other is, "Who plays where"? Console gamers, since they tend to be younger, prefer a faster game - or a "twitch" game if you will - versus their older counter-parts on the PC. And, a faster game requires a pared down control model.

The downside is that kids also tend to have a higher proportionate amount of disposable income and free time. Face it, the target market for game developers ISN'T the 26-35 year old segment of the population, it's the 14-21 year old segment. And, quite frankly, they want a different game than we older guys do...for the most part.

I referenced Joint Ops in my original post as a great example of a game ruined (IMO) by the developer's desire to appeal to the younger segment of the gaming group. There are countless others as well. Strategy is fast becoming extinct in gaming, and what now passes for it is simply an increased hand-eye coordination ability. After all, I have yet to see ANY military organization or Law Enforcement agency teach the "bunny hop" as a viable means of avoiding enemy fire while crossing open spaces...yet evervirtually every shooter out there allows it.

Caine

Edited by Caine
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Dan i never use sillly 'kool' syntax such as 'teh ubi suxrz' so don't miss paraphrase me.

i also never said 'I"m not buying GRAW'. It's normal to assume though in the early stages that if a game isn't to your taste you 'might not' buy it.

Also. I have praised the recent releases un the yin yan because A: we have finnally gotten enough media to make judgement and B: It's exactly our aggressive and enthusiastic posting that has influenced some of the changes and directions.

As i remember Dan you neve actually post about anything on these forums, you just cruise around looking for people to dissagree with and act all demeaning to. I usually ignore you but as you addressed me personally out of the blue.

Dan you just come over as plain creepy when you saunter into a discussion and call people 'little forum children' do you see yourself as some intellectual giant or something?

I suggest you keep your ego in check and keep your opinions to yourself unless you can muster some lucid thoughts on the subjects.

Edited by Poita
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well poita, havnt you changed your tune.

Earlier on in the piece you were probably the biggest pain in the a.rse  this forum had seen in a while.

Every 2nd post in this section was you needlessly bagging rse/grin/ubi. Uneducated opinions plastered all over the place, with a common thread of "teh ubi suxrz, im not buying graw". Anyone that told you to have faith or calm down was met with a tryraid of "why hate the haters" abuse. Any positive news from the dev camp was met with contempt and suspicion.

Let this be a lesson to you little forum children, your not always right.

In light of Poita's most recent post, QFE.

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Iv come up with 5 main reasons why people play on a console

-LAN Parties (split screen also)

-Comfort (controllers, couch... big screen tv etc...)

-Plug and Play

-Price

-Game Titles. (halo 3 ?)

Every person i know....that are not PC gamers its because of price. Plain and simple it costs more money then a console.... crap half of them wont buy a X360 because it cost to much.

Edited by Prozac360
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Ha ha you guys defy common sense and basic logic sometimes.

Some of us rail against a dumbed down GRAW PC and even at GRINS admision many of our posts have helped to influence the develpement, then we like what we see close to release date and you see that as us not having needed to lobby. Can you even manage a thought process beyong one layer?

If we had just chilled out and 'had faith' there might be a whole host of stuff that we hate about GRAW PC now but it would be too late to change it.

People like dan just can't stand it when someone has an opinion, any opinion. That's why he doesn't post much on his own original ideas, just drops into threads and attacks people.

Sad really when you think about it.

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Iv come up with 5 main reasons why people play on a console

-LAN Parties (split screen also)

-Comfort (controllers, couch... big screen tv etc...)

-Plug and Play

-Price

-Game Titles. (halo 3 ?)

Every person i know....that are not PC gamers its because of price. Plain and simple it costs more money then a console.... crap half of them wont buy a X360 because it cost to much.

Another big reason is the community. Somehow, Console gamers don't feel like every developer should be making their game exactly how they (the fan) want it. Something which this forum illustrates quite well as a big problem among the PC community.

I'd much rather work on console games myself, knowing the players would actually like them for what they were.

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  If we had just chilled out and 'had faith' there might be a whole host of stuff that we hate about GRAW PC now but it would be too late to change it.

No. :wall:

Politely and reasonably outlining a few plausible requests (no 'OMG I WUNTZ THA SIMULATIOnS') would get you a lot farther than the mindless bashing this forum seems to enjoy.

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Well GRIN seem to enjoy reading our feedback over the last year or so and have been very busy here recenly. So maybe they like it that we are so vocal about what we love or hate.

I never thought of it that way but it's true, the PC gamers have a closer relationship with the devs than the console players. There is a kind of 'partnership' feeling in it whereas the console world really gives a sense of patronisation. Even in console game design you can feel the devs 'assumptions' everywhere about 'what the kids like to see on screen.'

Sure the console devs get more peace and quiet but i'll bet they also get less appreciation and satisfaction when they get it right.

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Another big reason is the community. Somehow, Console gamers don't feel like every developer should be making their game exactly how they (the fan) want it. Something which this forum illustrates quite well as a big problem among the PC community.

This is easly compensated with Good mod tools....

Sure its more work but look how long people have been playing GR ... Theres still what 300-400 people playing it online at any given time?

and GRIN really does seem to be doing a good job. I like the fact they look threw all the BS posts and pick out the ones the GR fans want in the game.

I say best developers iv seen so far since RSE in R6:RS days

Edited by Prozac360
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Well GRIN seem to enjoy reading our feedback over the last year or so and have been very busy here recenly. So maybe they like it that we are so vocal about what we love or hate.

 

  I never thought of it that way but it's true, the PC gamers have a closer relationship with the devs than the console players. There is a kind of 'partnership' feeling in it whereas the console world really gives  a sense of patronisation. Even in console game design you can feel the devs 'assumptions' everywhere about 'what the kids like to see on screen.'

  Sure the console devs get more peace and quiet but i'll bet they also get less appreciation and satisfaction when they get it right.

It's still patronization, it's just the inexperienced fans patronizing the devs. :rolleyes:

Prozac360: Yeah, I'd say modding is the main point that counterbalances it for me.

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Time to stop comparing console and PC gamers here. We all understand what is happening betweemn the aforementioned platforms and not everyone agrees with what is happening.

Keep this on how much GRAW will rock and not the console vs. PC fight lest I have to lock this thread.

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Ha ha you guys defy common sense and basic logic sometimes.

  Some of us rail against a dumbed down GRAW PC and even at GRINS admision many of our posts have helped to influence the develpement, then we like what we see close to release date and you see that as us not having needed to lobby. Can you even manage a thought process beyong one layer?

  If we had just chilled out and 'had faith' there might be a whole host of stuff that we hate about GRAW PC now but it would be too late to change it.

  People like dan just can't stand it when someone has an opinion, any opinion. That's why he doesn't post much on his own original ideas, just drops into threads and attacks people.

  Sad really when you think about it.

Time to stop comparing console and PC gamers here. We all understand what is happening betweemn the aforementioned platforms and not everyone agrees with what is happening.

Keep this on how much GRAW will rock and not the console vs. PC fight lest I have to lock this thread.

WK should have been locked already, its gone round in circles from the start,

and then there is the Bold comments, insulting other members is not on. :nono::nono:

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Now I've done my circle dance.  <_<

silent_op

haha, ROFLMAO :rofl:

I can see you type this, read it back and think, jeez where did that come from :huh: ? hehe :lol: !

Good old Si_op always in for a thourough statement :thumbsup:

Good post :sheep: !!!

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Also. I have praised the recent releases un the yin yan because A: we have finnally gotten enough media to make judgement

So your saying that no matter how much media you dont have, you can write a game off completely? Guilty until proven inocent?

And yes poita, ive spent that last 3 years and over 2500 posts simply disagreeing with everyone :rolleyes:

There was a time when i gave a crap about GR and its sequels, GR1 was and always will be a great game, but the way this community acted when GR2 was annocued made me sick. I thought things might change with GRAW, but no, they havnt really.

2 dev teams have had to come to the forum and hold everyones hands. Thats what its taken for this community to start acting like fans and not a bunch of whinging idiots.

The reliance some people have on these games verges on pathetic some times, and i dont think im the only person getting sick of it either.

Its a game, they are going to make it, and they are going to sell. If you dont like it, dont buy it. Ive been saying that since GR2, and its still rings true today.

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Hmm so what are saying is we shouldn't care about something we spend perhaps 3 hours a day doing. I don't know about you but i try to only devote my time to things i really care about. I GR wasn't important and i didnt mind so much because it was 'just a game' then i would not spend the time to chat about it online, form a clan, organize matches, join a league make new friends and arrange to spend time online with existing friends and play the game. Hopscotch is something i wouldnt care about. GR is a game but it's also something more in what it achieves for a certain commuity. It also takes a certain type of game to do that. It wouldn't work with BF2 or Joint ops or many others. So we can see by the way it's going if it's gonna be as special as GR1 was and have that effect on our community and online social life.

So maybe you drift into a game of GR now and then when you want half an hour distraction and dont really care too much if it's great or just ok. Personally if something is just 'ok' i don't bother with it at all. Excuuuuuuse me for caring about the quality of the things i take the time to be involved with.

As for GR2 well your point doesnt make sense. It actually did go consoly on the xbox. Even console players complained about it being linear. Not only that but it was cancelled on the pc so gee, excuse us for following a games progress and being in volved in commenting on the shape it is taking.

Finally. You seem to think that all you say is wise and mature and the very fact that someone else has an opoinion makes it ranting. You have too much ego and you are also extremely condecending. When i posted about GRAW dev in the early days i was very lucid and addressed exact and specifit points. Many of them got changed so my posts were constructive and had a good effect.

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well, i just had a quick look at your old posts, to see if maybe i was wrong about you. But no, ive been right all along.

All your old posts are just opionionated crap. I want this in graw, i want that in graw, graw needs this. Id hardly say your posts helped change graw, you often had to apologise for what you said after posting.

You werent part of the solution poita, you just got in the way while people that were being useful and constructive got the job done.

The fact you live and breathe for a computer game means nothing to me. If anything it means you shouldnt play a large role in the development process, because you are too fanatical for your own good. IIRC you were part of the crowd that pretty much wanted GR1 on a new engine. Thats pretty bloody pointless.

So get rid of the 'graw is awesome because of me' attitude and be greatful the devs are a very good bunch.

Things looked as though they were going the same way as GR2: lots of idiots slamming the game they hadnt heard anything about yet.

Another sequel bypassing the PC would have been a disaster, be thankful they have decided to make a new PC title. Get over yourself.

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