Enemy animatin & AI

[Poita]

I'm very impressed with the overall look of that tiny vid on the Ageia page but one thing that has been nagging at me is the way the guy by the truck straffs sideways then waits then drops into a squat to fire.

Of course those are things an enemy combatant might do but there was just something puppet like in the way it did. I mean when they are under fire i think there would be a certain loosening of composure even with highly trained soldiers.

The scripted and sequenced animations of enemy's in games sometimes suffers from a lack of natural flow. Yes even GR1 had the problem A few games like Far Cry and OpFlash had some kidn of feeling of the enemy really reacting in a fluid and human way . . . sometimes . But it seems to be a very hard thing for game devs to crack, to make the gamer feel that he's shooting at and being shot by a real person, they way a human controlled player moves. I guess the perfect example is the bots in cs , they are so so so well done that it's hard to distinguish them from human players without their names.

I know this little anim isnt maybe representative of the whole game but he does look like a wooden puppet. Even ignores teh fact that a truck is exploding right by him.

[BoGRIN]

I'm very impressed with the overall look of that tiny vid on the Ageia page but one thing that has been nagging at me is the way the guy by the truck straffs sideways then waits then drops into a squat to fire.

  Of course those are things an enemy combatant might do but there was just something puppet like in the way it did. I mean when they are under fire i think there would be a certain loosening of composure even with highly trained soldiers.

 

  The scripted and sequenced animations of enemy's in games sometimes suffers from a lack of natural flow. Yes even GR1 had the problem A few games like Far Cry and OpFlash had some kidn of feeling of the enemy really reacting in a fluid and human way  . . . sometimes . But it seems to be a very hard thing for game devs to crack, to make the gamer feel that he's shooting at and being shot by a real person, they way a human controlled player moves. I guess the perfect example is the bots in cs , they are so so so well done that it's hard to distinguish them from human players without their names.

  I know this little anim isnt maybe representative of the whole game but he does look like  a wooden puppet. Even ignores teh fact that a truck is exploding right by him.

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Sigh...again (for the 33th time) that was taken in reccording mode and that sequence should never have happened in the game. The player should be dead 4 times.) Again.

[=3dS=rOOk]

Sigh...again (for the 33th time) that was taken in reccording mode and that sequence should never have happened in the game. The player should be dead 4 times.) Again.

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So the BOT is 'thinking' that the player is already dead?

[Cutter]

Sigh...again (for the 33th time) that was taken in reccording mode and that sequence should never have happened in the game. The player should be dead 4 times.) Again.

That may be the 43rd time I'm guessing you are wanting this game to come out just as bad as us for reasons like this. Hope you stick around even though it can be discouraging sometimes.

[capteenix]

but in 'night op" Screenshot it looks like animation is taken from Gr1! huh? how is he standing! so wierd position..i want my xobox360 back

i thing our "hardcore" fans are screwing this game...

[Poita]

Sorry if it's getting on your nerves Bo. I know there is thousands of us and one of you so it can get a bit grating.

But . . . .my reference was to the Bot in the distance by the van and the odd way he seems to walk and crouch as if doing it by the numbers. Whether the 'player' is dead or not i dont see how that impacts on the AI animation.

Maybe i'm missing something that is obvious though.

[zwitherow]

i would think that the bot isn't moving correctly because of two reasons:

1) he's not taking any fire. as bo said, the player's just recording the truck explosion, and isn't even paying attention to the enemy. i'm sure if the ghost took a few shots at him he'd find some cover.

2) he has a clear shot. the guy making the recording is completely exposed. if i was the guy next to the truck, and i wasn't taking fire i'd drop the ghost right there, and then take cover. problem is the ghost isn't dieing.

this is only speculation as i have not seen the AI in action.

edit: watched it again and i see what you mean. i can only hope that when the AI is taking it's cues from the ghosts (instead of just engaging a stationary target that doesn't return fire) it's movements will seem a bit less "calculated."

Edited March 24, 2006 by zwitherow

[agentkay]

CS AI is a waypoint AI in VERY SMALL levels. GRAW AI have a much harder task, not only the levels are much harder, but there are far more "ways" the AI can go. I´m not sure if the AI even has waypoints or scans the enviroment and pick the approaches and retreats based on the AI routine or pre-set waypoints.

I said it before, making really good AI is extremely difficult especially if they can do more than stand still and just shoot a rifle. If they are able to "see" cover, to "see" the different paths, if they interact with other AI characters, part the squad, one part surpresses, the other flanks, and all this in a much larger and variable enviroment. If they are able to "hear" and prepare an attack even before the player has direct contact with the AI., etc.

I think one reason why we might have not gotten any videos yet is because we might be nitpicking the devs to death about little things. Not directed again anyone particular. Let the devs finish the game, minor things can always be solved by a patch or two.

My 2 cents.

Edited March 24, 2006 by agentkay

[zwitherow]

CS AI is a waypoint AI in VERY SMALL levels.  GRAW AI have a much harder task, not only the levels are much harder, but there are far more "ways" the AI can go.  I´m not sure if the AI even has waypoints or scans the enviroment and pick the approaches and retreats based on the AI routine or pre-set waypoints.

I said it before, making really good AI is extremely difficult especially if they can do more than stand still and just shoot a rifle.  If they are able to "see" cover, to "see" the different paths,  if they interact with other AI characters, part the squad, one part surpresses, the other flanks, and all this in a much larger and variable enviroment.

I think one reason why we might have not gotten many videos yet is because we might be nitpicking the devs to death about little things.  Not directed again anyone particular. Let the devs finish the game, minor things can always be solved by a patch or two.

My 2 cents.

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i agree, i believe the AI in GR: AW will be alot better than the bots in CS, but i think what Poita meant is that the bots in CS move and act like human players.

i think the problem with that video, is that the GR: AW AI logic is based on reacting to the ghosts. which is good, that means they will be just as dynamic as you are.. and inversely, if you just stand there (much like the ghost in the video) they will react in the most basic of ways.

now it's been said that they will try to flank you and what not but it looked like there was only one bot.. and that's a whole different thread in itself..

[Colin]

I would say the bot is DEAD.

What you see is generated. NOT REAL.

[Hatchetforce]

I will also add that despite the fact the bot should have been dead, some highly trained soldiers often continue to operate despite the world blowing up around them. There is a battle focus and even though the world going to crap they continue to move.

Sometimes guys appear like they are in slow motion, just taking their time, no hurry. Rounds are hitting the ground and it would seem they are humming as they slowly raise their weapon and fire. In reality they are moving quickly but they know the golden rule that in such a situation, slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Such actions also, oddly enough, occur on the rare occasion with untrained soldiers. They get whay we call scope lock. All they see is a traget and because of nerves going to hell, are focused on that target and on that target's elimination. There is something in their subconscious telling them if they get that target the world will right itself. The difference between the two cases is the trained individual is aware of his surroundings while the latter is not.

[Poita]

Interesting point all.

I have thought of a better way to describe why it looks odd to me.

Apart from the fact that i actualy dont think it's running at full frames persecond so it could be an illusion of stiffness.

Ok he looks like this.

Think of when a beginner dancer is first learning a new dance such as salsa or something with many steps and turns to memorise. They count the steps in a very clunky way and take brief moments to calculate the next ones inbetween. Only when they have mastered and memorised it do they loosen up and let it flow.

The guy looks like this.

Straff left 2, 3, 4.

Stop 2, 3, 4.

Point gun 2, 3, 4.

Crouch 2, 3, 4.

Just looks very robotic the way he moves. Some games have ai with a real natural flow and most have a jerky computational look to the way they move. I dont make any judgments about the game from that tiny vid. Just curious is all.

[Hatchetforce]

Part of the issue is undoubtedly the fact it is flash animation. Ever seen a flip book? If you flip the pages slowly, it looks jerky. But if you flip faster the animation is smoother because the progression of pages blurs.

[silent_op]

A few things from Bo about the Ageia Animation in question:

Looking at the HUD he's got 2 enemies to his right. Take cover from them and kill the camera guy. Now notice the camera guys is dead at least 4 times.

Nope that explosion is not powerfull enough to fling him far. The grenade explodes in the truck. But if you hit something like a larger tank of fuel, hit with more than 1 nade, or with c4 or just blow up a gas station or such then ppl will be flying. Bodys when they die drop pretty straight down from shrapnel and bullets at high speeds.

It is a balance.

Ah looked closely. The guy who shoots get hit like TOO many times (no wonder he is not in cover) so the hit sakes his head. Though as he is in reccording mode he cannot be killed. Remeber that was a Physix simulation. One hit like theat he would topple over and die. The HUD dance will not apear like that in the game.

Then the shake form the explosion is a shockwave.

Ok hope that clear up things

I can confirm it is the PC version yes

The fact that the events are a bit different is that they are indeed different - they played like crazy for hours to get two similar - did not want to fake the footage in terms of gameplay I guess.

Soo PPU will not kill easier no

silent_op

Edited March 24, 2006 by silent_op