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http://www.ick.bz/pdfs/Red_Storm_press_release.pdf

"Glitches Glitches are here to stay. Dodger33 asked a great question “How do glitches get into the game?†Apparently the average map (in a Red Storm game) gets something like 400 man-hours of testing before release. Yes, you read that right, the equivalent of one person playing just that map for 8 hours a day for 50 days. This person looks for glitches and errors during this time. In the first 30 days on LIVE the average map gets something like 400 man-YEARS of play time. This is why the public can find glitches that the developers cannot possibly discover in the amount of time it takes to get a game to production. On top of that certain aspects of LIVE play cannot be replicated. The way that massive amounts of people interact over a myriad of real-life internet connections cannot be reproduced and analyzed pre-launch."

This is exactly why I do not understand the lack of a Demo release. Get the game out in the environment it will actually be played in and incorporate the feedback into the actual launch version. Instead we get a glitchy release (Red X and Friends List Issues to name a couple recent examples) and wait for patches ...

It makes no sense to me that they launch a game on a new platform without extensive testing on Live - and I don't mean 400 hours.

OK - Done ranting.

Otherwise Ick has again presented us with sme great info on our favorite franchise.

Edited by W1ngsh0t
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Gamestop, IGN, teamxbox, could learn something by this article in this PDF. It talks to fans of the game, and tells them all the ins and outs of it, and doesn't just gloss over stuff. If IGN insider, or some game service had such well written in depth articles that spoke to fans of a particular game, I might consider joining and becoming an exclusive member.

This is a must read for anyone who is a fan of the GR series on Xbox/360.

Ick should be proud. Hopefully we'll see more of this type of thing in the future from Ick and the community. The game sites just go after the everyday gamer, and don't delve into a game the way ick has. Thats all fine and dandy, (because perhaps that is most of their audience) . But they could learn a thing or two from this article.

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Gamestop, IGN, teamxbox, could learn something by this article in this PDF.  It talks to fans of the game, and tells them all the ins and outs of it, and doesn't just gloss over stuff.  If IGN insider, or some game service had such well written in depth articles that spoke to fans of a particular game, I might consider joining and becoming an exclusive member.

This is a must read for anyone who is a fan of the GR series on Xbox/360.

Ick should be proud.  Hopefully we'll see more of this type of thing in the future from Ick and the community.  The game sites just go after the everyday gamer, and don't delve into a game the way ick has.  Thats all fine and dandy, (because perhaps that is most of their audience) .  But they could learn a thing or two from this article.

Good read, bro

Cheers

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http://www.ick.bz/pdfs/Red_Storm_press_release.pdf

This is exactly why I do not understand the lack of a Demo release. Get the game out in the environment it will actually be played in and incorporate the feedback into the actual launch version. Instead we get a glitchy release (Red X and Friends List Issues to name a couple recent examples) and wait for patches ...

It makes no sense to me that they launch a game on a new platform without extensive testing on Live - and I don't mean 400 hours.

The reason is simple. Even if Red Storm wanted to, Ubisoft probably wouldn't let them make such a move.

Why?

Simply, bad publicity. They don't want people to play a product riddled with glitches, and then refrain from purchasing the finished product.

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awsome job. very good read. Finally some detailed information worth reading about topics that are actually of real importance to people. Classes, character profiles, pacing, lag, hit detection. A++. Thanks Ick. Real meat and potatoes stuff. This is a breath of fresh air after the never ending over-hype of the cross com coming from most of the game press.

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http://www.ick.bz/pdfs/Red_Storm_press_release.pdf

This is exactly why I do not understand the lack of a Demo release. Get the game out in the environment it will actually be played in and incorporate the feedback into the actual launch version. Instead we get a glitchy release (Red X and Friends List Issues to name a couple recent examples) and wait for patches ...

It makes no sense to me that they launch a game on a new platform without extensive testing on Live - and I don't mean 400 hours.

The reason is simple. Even if Red Storm wanted to, Ubisoft probably wouldn't let them make such a move.

Why?

Simply, bad publicity. They don't want people to play a product riddled with glitches, and then refrain from purchasing the finished product.

Yup - and so marketing wins out over delivery of a quality product.

Even this irks me a bit -

"Apparently the average map (in a Red Storm game) gets something like 400 man-hours of testing before release. Yes, you read that right, the equivalent of one person playing just that map for 8 hours a day for 50 days. "

One would hope htat the MP maps are being tested by 16 players ... so the 400 hours is about 25 hours of playing time I don't see that as a huge investment. Especially not when they could get 1000's of hours of play testing for free with a demo/Beta release.

Edited by W1ngsh0t
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http://www.ick.bz/pdfs/Red_Storm_press_release.pdf

"Glitches Glitches are here to stay."

I want to respond to this, because it is based on a statement by myself that I think got a bit blown out of proportion due to the giant "callout" of "Glitches are here to stay," which is not a statement I made.

I was pointing out the fact that bugs in code can slip through, and be found after release, because of the sheer size of the amount of people playing a game. Especially with the interconnetced communities of players, word of "glitches" spreads fast. NO amount of pre-release testing will find every single thing in a game with a lot of variety and play. Most of these are inconsequential (like a stetched texture), some are not. Look at CounterStrike (original), how many iterations did it go through and still issues were found. Look at Halo2, one of the most tested games in history, and still MP issues were found. Look at Rome: Total War, one of the best RTS games in history, MP issues were found. Heck, look at Word. Do you think that was tested by lots of people? Issues were found, and still are being found.

My point was that in order to get the amount of play testing that a strong community puts a game through, you would need to wait 100 years for a game. After 100 years, a dev team could guaruntee that there were no glitches. Do you want to wait 100 years for a title that you KNOW will not have any issues?

Also, keep in mind that you really only hear about glitches in games PEOPLE PLAY. You don't hear about glitches in bad games, because people don't play bad games long enough to find them.

And yes, MP maps are tested by more than one person. :huh:

Did anyone ever find that one Georgian Rebel that was in GR:IT Xbox on the Swamp Airfield mission? Nope. I found out after the game released that I had accidentally not switched a character model from the default GR1 type to the Cuban IT type. No one has ever noticed it. Why? It is minor, and people don't notice. But it is an example of how something can slip through, even though we had a massive amount of testers working on that title. Heck, it even slipped past the GR community! :whistle:

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Did anyone ever find that one Georgian Rebel that was in GR:IT Xbox on the Swamp Airfield mission?  Nope.  I found out after the game released that I had accidentally not switched a character model from the default GR1 type to the Cuban IT type.  No one has ever noticed it.  Why?  It is minor, and people don't notice.  But it is an example of how something can slip through, even though we had a massive amount of testers working on that title.  Heck, it even slipped past the GR community!  :whistle:

I noticed it years back but then again i play this game way too much

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I understand that the dev team can't spend for ever and a day testing ... but why not release a beta to test on Live? Maybe GR:AW will not have major issue - I truly hope that is the case - but it would make me a lot more comfortable knowing the game had been put through a "real life" test on Live.

Its not the minor glitches that I am concerned about but the major ones.

That being said - this is the onegame that I am truly looking forward to playing. I just logged off Live where we had 2 and a half full rooms for a Summit Strike send off and everyone is looking forward to GR:AW.

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BTW, my response wasn't directed at Ick, I think the writeup is great, he and his crew were awesome gamers, truly representative of the GR community (any platform would be proud to have these folks).

My comments in the last post were about the industry and games in general, not about GRAW specifically.

This particular point just got blown out of proportion in various threads I have read.

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Did anyone ever find that one Georgian Rebel that was in GR:IT Xbox on the Swamp Airfield mission?  Nope.  I found out after the game released that I had accidentally not switched a character model from the default GR1 type to the Cuban IT type.  No one has ever noticed it.  Why?  It is minor, and people don't notice.  But it is an example of how something can slip through, even though we had a massive amount of testers working on that title.  Heck, it even slipped past the GR community!  :whistle:

nice argument :)

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Very true, Serellen. I work in graphics in the television and film industry, and i have actually misspelled things that slip by like 20 people in approvals, and i will see the mistake on national tv a week later. sometimes things just get through. And dont worry, if you ever need more testers , i could probably clear up my schedule. :thumbsup:

Edited by OPSIXDELTA
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BTW, my response wasn't directed at Ick, I think the writeup is great, he and his crew were awesome gamers, truly representative of the GR community (any platform would be proud to have these folks).

My comments in the last post were about the industry and games in general, not about GRAW specifically.

This particular point just got blown out of proportion in various threads I have read.

The part of that section that I found interesting was simply the amount of time played on a game in one month after release. 400 man-years, that is just, wow...

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I have to agree with Serellan completely. I am a developer as well and have made 100's of programs, web pages, LMS's and stuff like that. In my company we have several people go over the products for days. No matter how well you get people to look, or how good they are, the chances of something being missed is very high.

Then the product is released. This is where the fun comes in, in one of my apps I wrote. I thought I took care of everything. I was proud as hell, couple days later I got a call from a client and they stated if the pressed a certain combination of keys, the code would break. Now this combination is nothing I ever heard of. My thoughts were "Ok, damn I never added the error catching code for button mashing, how foolish am I".

My point is no matter how many people or how much time some one puts into testing, bugs will slip by, and they may be found or they may never. Some are huge (cant remember the game but one was if you uninstall the game, it removed everything but the game :) ) and some are small (texture stretch). Even releasing a beta test never finds everything, usually with beta tests, one person posts an issue and 3000 people begin to complain about it :)

K I rambled and lost interest myself :)

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