Suggestion (for GR4?)

[Foxtrot360]

in GRTs picture i think its not hair but leaves and foliage for camofluage ontop of a helment.

I dont think it should be implemented either, i see it as useless.

[Logos]

To me, you shouldn't even need a move like that at all.  If you get yourself into that position where you need to waste time rolling over, in the first place...

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This has been the theme of a number of people's arguments against this move. Frankly, it's absurd. Denying a potentially useful movement based upon the idea that you would have to make a tactical mistake in order to need it, and therefore should NOT have it available, is absurd. People make those tactical mistakes. Period.

Tortfeaser is correct, in that situation, you're likely dead, but that's not a reason to deny a move in order to ensure you're dead.

And that's still only an address of my initial "sniper in the window" situational need. I've mentioned another -- you're prone; you hear someone running up directly behind you, someone who likely doesn't know you're there. Have you people really never put a burst in someone's back in multi-player after stumbling upon them prone, back to you, struggling to get up and turn against you? Really? Do you even play multi-player? Because once things go to hell in multi-player, people do, I'm here to tell you, believe it or not, make tactical mistakes. Or have you just never seen things go to hell? Have you never been the last one alive? No one to cover your back? Have you never had that "one guy covering the back door" get shot first? Have you not made mistakes? Have you never let someone get by you? Have you never missed someone and moved past them? Have you never been prone, needed to stay down, wanted/needed to look behind you, and needed to do it quicker than what you could do it turning on your belly?

There are situations where it's a useful option. They might not be frequent, but they come up. And if it's not a major resource hog, and it's NOT, then there's no reason not to have it. It's a movement option every able-bodied person has available to them, and everyone is calling for more realism. It should be included in a game. It's too late for this game, I know, but some day. Think it's useless? Don't use it.

--Logos

[Specter]

It isn't that it's so much a resource hog. Look at the keyboard combos and controls now. It's just another that you will have to reach for, since all the convenient keys are already used.

And most of us would never dream of using it. We have never had it in a game to use.

As for your MP question, no, I have never had to shoot anyone in the back, after "stumbling" on them.

Frankly, I have never in GR, or any other TAC Si I have had the pleasure to play with these folks or others, and I have played GR and the R6 games since demo days for both, have never seen or anticipated a need for this move.

You're the first person I have seen that has.

Honestly, my basis for not thinking it necessary to include it, is it would never get used, and it would just be another move that you would have to take your hand off the mouse for so you could reach the right side of the keyboard.

Even in the R6 series, back from the original, I can't think of one time when that move would have been benficial, not if you were practicing good tactics, and your team was working as a unit.

It's nothing personal, I just think it would be a wasted feature that would be rarely if ever used. Especially in a battlefield setting such as GR. It would actually have more relevance, IMO, in R6 and RS, and even then, it would be extremely rare.

Not only that, but if the engine is accurate in ballistic and physics representations, your accuracy in that position isn't going to be worth a darn, and you'd end up dead anyway.

IMO, it just doesn't fit.

It would have more relevance in games like UT and Quake where no one cares about realism.

[Logos]

And most of us would never dream of using it. 

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Glad you're speaking for the majority in here. Is that based on the 6 who posted in this thread who were in favor of it, or the 5 who weren't? Most?

And, really, you've been playing all these games since the demos, and you've never run up on anyone prone? Or, wait, you HAVE run up on someone prone, but never from behind. Dude, you're being contrary now for the sake of being contrary. Say you don't see the use in it, but don't say you've played the RSE games since the demos and have never run up on someone from behind while they're prone. That's ridiculous. Just stop.

--Logos

[connie lingus]

Strictly Co-op players would never see the need, but in TvT this sort of scenario happens all the time.

In other games that use knives, a prone rifleman can never get turned around fast enough when a knifer comes from behind him.

[Snowy]

theres really no basis to argue against the including of this feature based on:

1. it wont get used......hell me and logos will use it plenty!!

2. its another key to press........you have roughly 80 keys on ur keyboard....and if u dnt wanna map it, or press it, then dont, stay prone......its merely an option, and an interesting one i feel.....

i cnt see why ppl wud be against another movement.....yes in co-op, unless the AI becomes super sneaky it'll be useless, but in TvT lord knows if ur hiding in a bush, it wud be nice to have a quick look behind u every now and then, just to make sure ur not about to bite the dust.....

[Specter]

Like I said, it was just my personal opinion, and I know the opinion of others. No need for argument.

I have played coop and TvT since GR was a demo, the same with the R6 and RS series.

In all that time, mention of the move or missing it for that matter never came up. I've just never heard one single person til now say, "Hey, we need that."

Even TvT, which is just coop against human players, I still can't see where the need for it would arise.

But as I said, it's just my opinion.

[Cpl Ledanek]

from Delta Force to BF2; since 56k modem-bad ping to DSL. Ever time I play sniper, I always get stepped on or stabbed on the back.

It did stop once I started playing team or started using so called realism mod for BF2 with another player. No threat indicator. Its your kb/mouse and speakers. You hear a crunch from the back, turn around. Friend or Foe situation.

Either someone decided to watch your back or your dead.

Game-reality, either an AI or another gamer is behind your back, either you got your KB have an F-button shortcut---its still a sec short.

Your dead.

Done.

Move on to spawn timer to do its countdown.

Game or reality, its better someone watches your six.

Resource hog/scripting---I don't know. Can't be replaced with someone watching your six.

2 cents...not a cet more.

[Lead Salad]

Perhaps at this point in gaming, I think it it must be said that improvements in indiviual movement can and should be made. Whether or not it is tactical or not is meaningless to me, as it's a video game and not real life. Nothing in gaming is anywhere close to being "real", so therefore while I can appreciate a game's attempt at realism, I think it the primary focus should be to make this fun and entertaining.

So why not have the ability to do more than use the standard keys for walking straight, left, right, backwards, kneel, prone. Anyone with an imagination can probably add at least 2 or 3 moves to the normal palette of options, and Logo's idea is a good example. I don't know why all shooters don't have a sprint option, don't know why in some of them it's unallowable to clamber over a four-foot wooden fence, etc.

A human being can maneuver in multiple ways, yet we get four directions, can get our knees dirty and hit the deck, and that's about it. Evolution in movement is long overdue.

[pz3]

Look at it like this then....

GRAW preview from 1up .... chracter dives to the ground pass an AI and turns around to shoot.

Now if this feature was added and that was a TvT game, Some one dives past you, rolls onto their back and fires.... It doesnt seem good IMO run n gun stuff then. Doesnt promote team gameplay.

You will still have body armor-gear that weighs a lot your not gunna be able to move with the finesse of a ninja to do these kidns of moves.

From just playing around on the floor myself, Your not going to be able to shoulder the weapon correctly at all.

That means Recoil +++ up , accuracy ----- down. and you can only aim up with your knees up and knees down you can aim a little further, but in both cases your not going to shoulder the rifle properly and its probly impossible to do all of this in a half second with near 100lbs of gear.

worthless .... get a fireteam, have a man watch the back. If everyone is dead you need your mobility before laying down.

It may add or take away from the gameplay, if done realisticly this feature will be worthless.

This feature to me is not usefull in anyway and is a waste of key space if done realisticly.

Edited January 29, 2006 by Prozac360

[Snowy]

ok thats a fair point aiming and firing from that position will be poor, but it still has merits for recon, it allows a quick check of the area behind you without causing you to slide about the place on ur stomach, and i know for rugby training drills i'd rather roll about than crawl about on the floor

[smokin]

I like the idea. Its far more impressive if movments like this were included VS red dimonds, Frag trajectory, HDR, and other consolish type gimiks there are out there.

The more complex the game, the more interesting it is. Imagine if you had to roll on you back to say rig a truck with explosives, or to bust out rambo style and grab onto the underside(no not realistic), deactivate certain defenses, .

From just playing around on the floor myself, Your not going to be able to shoulder the weapon correctly at all.

That means Recoil +++ up , accuracy ----- down.

That would be doubly cool, haveing accuracy SCREWED if you shoot on your back, you'd need to pull out a side arm, ... more complex= more fun. Thats the way I see it at least.

[Janie42]

I like the idea. Its far more impressive if movments like this were included VS red dimonds, Frag trajectory, HDR, and other consolish type gimiks there are out there.

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I'm w/you m8. Given the nonsense that is apparently going to be included, at least any new tactical/strategic movement options - useful or relatively useless - must be better than, for e.g., those ugly red diamonds!

[pz3]

well if its done realisticly I say put it in.

Only 5.56 and below rifles will really be able to firie like this. Othewise I since nose bleeds from firing somthing 7.62 and your weapon smaking you in the face.

just gives u some time to try and figure it out if im that sniper and miss, ill have ya and plenty of time to do it.

Edited January 29, 2006 by Prozac360

[Janie42]

... well if its done realisticly I say put it in... Only 5.56 and below rifles will really be able to firie like this. Othewise I since nose bleeds from firing somthing 7.62 and your weapon smaking you in the face.

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[connie lingus]

What about a .45 SMG hose gun?

Roll onto your back, Sit-up and spray!

[Specter]

well if its done realisticly I say put it in.

Only 5.56 and below rifles will really be able to firie like this. Othewise I since nose bleeds from firing somthing 7.62 and your weapon smaking you in the face.

just gives u some time to try and figure it out if im that sniper and miss, ill have ya and plenty of time to do it.

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If I'm that sniper, 1) I'm not going to have to get close enough for that "move" to work,

and 2) there isn't going to be enough time for them to find me and use that move.

One, snipers best work from a distance, and two, im not going to wait around long enough for them by jusst staanding there saying "Hey, wait a minute. They may know that one dumb move wheere they roll over onto their backs on top of all their equipment to shoot me. I'm going to wait and see if they can use that."

[connie lingus]

The example doesn't work against a long range sniper, but that doesn't mean it won't work at shorter ranges.

For snipers: You are in a crater looking through your scope and some stupid rifleman stumbles into your crater from behind---wouldn't you like to roll onto your back quickly?

[Specter]

The example doesn't work against a long range sniper, but that doesn't mean it won't work at shorter ranges.

For snipers: You are in a crater looking through your scope and some stupid rifleman stumbles into your crater from behind---wouldn't you like to roll onto your back quickly?

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Ecept with a full pack, camel's back, etc, there is no "quick" roll onto your back.

But for those of you in favor of the move, I hopee you get it.

More opportunity forr me tto shoot you while you'rre busy trying to roll over on all youur gear.

[Logos]

You will still have body armor-gear that weighs a lot your not gunna be able to move with the finesse of a ninja to do these kidns of moves.

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Ah, yes, the deadly roll over onto your back ninja move. You know they use wires to achieve that finesse, right?

just gives u some time to try and figure it out if im that sniper and miss, ill have ya and plenty of time to do it.

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But for those of you in favor of the move, I hopee you get it.

More opportunity forr me tto shoot you while you'rre busy trying to roll over on all youur gear.

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Ah, yes. I was wondering if this thread would degenerate into empty boasting. You guys are funny.

Two things:

1) Take a handgun out in the woods, hang a target on a tree, lay down on your back twelve feet from said tree, and start shooting at the target. I think you'll be surprised at how accurately you can shoot. You're eyes and brain don't go googly when you're on your back. Now try it with a rifle. Now imagine you can hear a man walking towards you who's going to clear the brush twelve feet in front of you; he's going to be holding a rifle to his shoulder, probably not looking intently at the ground, so you'll see him for a moment before he sees you; tell me, from twelve feet, could you shoot him?

2) You can't get past the simple benefit of being able to look over your shoulder when you're alone and prone.

--Logos

Edited January 30, 2006 by Logos

[pz3]

1. Handgun is a diffrent weapon then a rifle. 12 feet is diffrent from said original post. 12 feet may make a diffrence. Your not goint to be doing these moves with lets say a MK48 or any light machine guns or bigger weapons with more recoil (m82, m14). Accuratcy will still be difficult at lets say 100+ yards.

2. Theres a game that have that feature... i.e. OFP (vbs1 too?) press alt or somthing and you can free look around you as if your moving your head.

I would love that feature thoe =P hook it up to a IRtracker and you can check your shoulders without pressing a button. Would be great.

Edited January 30, 2006 by Prozac360

[Specter]

You will still have body armor-gear that weighs a lot your not gunna be able to move with the finesse of a ninja to do these kidns of moves.

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Ah, yes, the deadly roll over onto your back ninja move. You know they use wires to achieve that finesse, right?

just gives u some time to try and figure it out if im that sniper and miss, ill have ya and plenty of time to do it.

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But for those of you in favor of the move, I hope you get it.

More opportunity for me tto shoot you while you're busy trying to roll over on all your gear.

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Ah, yes. I was wondering if this thread would degenerate into empty boasting. You guys are funny.

Two things:

1) Take a handgun out in the woods, hang a target on a tree, lay down on your back twelve feet from said tree, and start shooting at the target. I think you'll be surprised at how accurately you can shoot. You're eyes and brain don't go googly when you're on your back. Now try it with a rifle. Now imagine you can hear a man walking towards you who's going to clear the brush twelve feet in front of you; he's going to be holding a rifle to his shoulder, probably not looking intently at the ground, so you'll see him for a moment before he sees you; tell me, from twelve feet, could you shoot him?

2) You can't get past the simple benefit of being able to look over your shoulder when you're alone and prone.

--Logos

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unless I'm doing CQB, if I let a bad guy get within 12 feet of me, one, my team isn't doing their job, or they are dead. Two, if they are dead, and i'm alone, i deserve to be shot for letting a guy get that close. chances are if you are alone and one guy got that close, the rest of his squad is close to, and you're hosed.

No one, especially on a battlefield if you and your men are doing your jobs right, should get that close to you. Now you are talking about 2 different weapons. chances are you will have the rifle in your hand, so the handgun is a moot point. If there is a bad guy close enough to see you or you see him, you aren't going to have enough time to switch weapons. And I'm sorry, but with adrenaline pumping, fear factor, stress, ragged breathing, possibly wounded, you just aren't going to move that fast or be that accurate.

Like Prozac said, it also depends on if you are carrying a lightweight M4 carbine, a sniper kit, or a squad machine gun. with anything but that carbine, you are dead. you just aren't going to be fast enough. And you can forgoet about being able to switch to a pistol in time. At least if you play the game like a SIM, anyway, and not some ut or Quake knock-off.

Edited January 30, 2006 by Specter

[Logos]

12 feet is diffrent from said original post.

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I know it is, but the scenario in the original post isn't the only one mentioned in this thread by people who like the idea; it just seems to be the only one addressed by the critics.

--Logos

[Logos]

unless I'm doing CQB...  or [my team] is dead.

If they are dead, and i'm alone, i deserve to be shot for letting a guy get that close. 

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Well, you're finally, at least, acknowledging the idea of being alone, but you fell back on the "I deserve to get shot" argument, which is a non-argument. You deserve to get shot for that nonsensical claim a few posts back that you've played all the R6 games since the demos yet have never moved up on someone from the rear who was prone, but who's paying attentiion to credibility?

Maybe you would prefer if they added a ritual suicide feature; you could map your seppuku feature to your MOUSE-2 button. "Whoops, I made a mistake. I should die now. <MOUSE-2>" "Look, someone got too close to me. <MOUSE-2>"

Sound like nonsense? It is. AND it reflects the spirit of the "deserve to get shot" argument.

chances are if you are alone and one guy got that close, the rest of his squad is close to, and you're hosed.

 

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The "chances are I'll die anyway" argument is about as poor as the "I deserve to get shot" argument. You always stand a chance of getting shot in these games if you make a mistake -- the greater the mistake, the greater the chance -- but you keep playing, right? Some of my most exhilirating moments in these games have been related to surviving mistakes, against the odds, and sucking out a win.

"Well, I'm probably dead anyway. <MOUSE-2> <MOUSE-2> <MOUSE-2>"

Not for me, thanks.

No one, especially on a battlefield if you and your men are doing your jobs right, should get that close to you. 

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1) You've heard of bayonets? I've never used one on someone, myself, but their design would indicate that they are for when people get closer, even, than 12 feet. Just a guess. What do you think those are for? Seppuku?

2) Battlefield? Battlefield? This isn't a battlefield; it's a videogame. I know it's a tac-sim, not an arcadish fps, and that's why I play it. But it's still a videogame. You can hope for all the reality in the world (except, apparently, the ability to roll over on to your back), but it's never going to be a true battlfield -- and I'm glad for that. People get close. People make mistakes. People get lucky. People get unlucky. And people do, from time to time, walk up on someone prone, from behind. And sometimes, through positional sound, that prone person hears them coming, and is trying to turn around to get a shot.

Tell me something, Specter. Are you one of those co-op specialists, the kind who plays TvT from time to time, gets your ass handed to you, then whines/complains that the victors weren't "playing right", and that they would never survive on a real battlefield? You sound that way. I'm just trying to get a gauge on who's talking. And please, no more empty boasts about what you would do to me in a game that doesn't exist yet. It's a serious question. Are you a co-op specialist that complains about TvT players not playing right?

--Logos

Edited January 30, 2006 by Logos

[connie lingus]

As a former SP and Co-op player who has converted to strictly TvT, I can relate to both mindsets here.

Co-op and SP is a mostly linear battleground where usually you rarely if ever get flanked from behind, the frontlines are always ahead of you. Yes, if you get flanked from behind in Co-op, you probably made some mistakes, unless the scripter put in some spawns from the rear, or a more challenging patrol path circuit.

But in TvT this is often not the case, especially in newer games with larger map areas you look for opportunities to flank from any direction.

This scenario happens very often in TvT.