O/T discussion from release date thread

[connie lingus]

I'd hardly think that Grin and UBI would screw themselves by doing such a thing.

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Too bad, I rather like the idea of them screwing themselves...

[NYR_32]

I'd hardly think that Grin and UBI would screw themselves by doing such a thing.

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Too bad, I rather like the idea of them screwing themselves...

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Why? So people would have more to complan about? Give me a break, if you want GR:AW to fail why even bother visiting forums and making that post? You want them to fall on their face, then don't buy the game and take yourself away from the series.

I'm tired of all these people who do nothing other than complain about GR:AW and R6: Lockdown. They see a magazine article with a title they don't like, so that means the game is garbage. They don't get a custom made game, so they complain that their series is being destroyed. Well guess what, we do not own the franchise, we do not get to tell the developers exactly what they have to do. UBI owns the rights to the names, storylines etc. they can do whatever they want. If UBI wants to make the game more mainstream and accessible to the casual gamer, they can and will. They can do whatever they neeed to to make money.

Accept that fact, if you don't like it, find something else to do with your free time, because every publisher has one goal in mind, the all mighty dollar and mainstream titles are what makes the big money, not niche markets.

Asking that the next iteration of the franchise to fall on its face is like asking for UBI to pull the plug on PC versions of these games. But hell, that will give the people who love to complain about everything more fuel. They might actually enjoy that more than playing a new game.

Want to know something, I personally would take straight up ports of the envititable next-gen titles. Contrary to what some of the "hardcore" think, a console game is just as good as anything you'll find in the PC games section at your local store. Games are supposed to be fun, they aren't life or death for anyone here (except maybe the fine folks who visit here everyday, that make these things for a living).

RSE and GRIN are doing what they can to a make a great game. Believe it or not the people making the content give a damn about what we think. Sometimes I wonder if they should even bother reading threads though, with all the bashing and whinning going on. Yes they have to make games that attract more casual gamers, but they still care about the old school players, the ones who have been with these franchisces from the start.

Some people really need to take the 1999-2001 blinders off and look around. A lot of people are missing the great features being put in these games, a lot of which I've seen disussed here over a year ago. I'd hope to think that isn't a coincidence, and I'd hope to think people would change their attitudes and discuss things that will help get us better games a few years down the road.

Whenever GRAW or GR4 or R6:5 comeout, I don't care, I'll still buy them because they will be fun (and hopefully packed with features people on this forum really want). In the end thats what games are all about. [/rant]

[Papa6]

All what i see in games these days is features as eye candy. when the eye candy wears off, then the game gets ordinary.

Added: I think Grin given the latitude of being able to use it's own game engine is a testiment to UBI needing to be treated via CPR. UBI is so big that it cannot develop it's own game engines as far as I know. UBI had crytek use it's crytek engine for farcry. Red storm used it's own engine for GR and now GRIN is using it's own engine for GRAW..

But hey if my memory serves correctly and someone here can validate my beign correct or not, UBIsoft is just "a" publisher for the most part.

Edited January 14, 2006 by Papa6

[Dannik]

To the best of my knowledge, Ubisoft Tiwak's in-house engine is what GRAW Xbox, Xbox360 and possibly PS2 are being developed on. RSE, who are responsible for the MP aspects of GRAW, not SP, used this engine, not their own.

Very few publishers/developers create their own engines these days, and the few that do, tend to be in the market to sell their engines, not their games. Doom3 comes to mind, as does the Unreal franchise. Sure, they publish arguably good games using their in-house engines, but they really are looking more to sell licenses to other developers, as that's where the easy money is.

[Ruin]

I agree with NYR... thank you for taking the words from me.

[stevenmu]

Firstly, I'm sure the game will be released. GRIN have to be payed for all the work they've done and I'm sure Ubi would prefer to do that out of our pockets than their own. Ubi has also invested time and money in the game and they'll want to recoup that with a nice profit on top, plus keep the franchise alive for future game to bring in even more profit.

Secondly, I have to agree with everything NYR said, Ubi don't owe us anything. In the past we've payed them money for their games, and in return we've recieved those games. That's it, we're even. In fact we've probably all gotten a lot more out of those games than we ever expected. The simple fact is, Ubi release games, if we want them then we buy them, if we don't want them then we don't buy them. If we want a different game to the ones Ubi release then we find someone else making one we do want, or we make our own.

Thirdly, with regard to the comments on engines, I really don't get it. You're complaining that modern games are just focusing on the graphics (which is a fair comment), but then complaining that that GRIN are using their own proprietery engine ? The only reason to use a generic engine would be for fancy graphics, that's mainly what generic engines provide. The exact same gameplay could be applied to the proprietery GRIN engine as could be to a generic Ubi/RSE one, in fact it would easy for GRIN to use their own engine because their devs would already be familiar with it, and they'd be able to customise it at will.

[Papa6]

srry mate, I don't see where I was complaining. My comment was pointed at the fact that in UBI's case(to simplify this) they don't do much in way of development it seems rather the publishing side.

I in no way complained about GRIN's engine. I guess what I was trying to say was, most games these days lack content to direct attention to new advances in technology, the ripple effects on water, texturing effects and so on.Added: this does look cool, but take for example DOOM3. It has some of the greatest advances in game technology. It's damn right gorgeous. but all the reviews I've read all came to one distinct conclusion, they got more into the technology aspect of the game and the levels turned out mundane and too linear.

Edited January 14, 2006 by Papa6

[Dannik]

but take for example DOOM3. It has some of the greatest advances in game technology. It's damn right gorgeous. but all the reviews I've read all came to one distinct conclusion, they got more into the technology aspect of the game and the levels turned out mundane and too linear.

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That was the point of my reply to you. The folks at iD developed the Doom3 engine to license it, bringing games like Quake 4 to market. The gameplay wasn't every meant to be the primary focus. The underlying tech was.

iD is an engine developer, who also release games. Proof of concept is the term, I believe. Same thing with the folks who develop the Unreal engine. More or less, the games they release are simply tech demos of what their engines are about, with some gameplay thrown in for the heck of it.

The only developer I know of who produces grade A engines AND content is the folks at Valve, but even then, they rely on 3rd parties to really show off the technology in a gamer friendly way. HL2 was good, and a true sequel to the original (which was built on a modified Q2 engine), but the defining moments to come will be from the modders, many of whom Valve have hired on. A very smart move.

It's hard to produce both a solid engine AND a solid game. A few developers manage to do so, but not many.

[stevenmu]

Sorry, looking back now I must have misread you, a combination of the time of night and the fact that there always seems to be someone complaining about something, has me seeing things

[Papa6]

np steve, I replied to a thread about a GR tourney that already transpired awhile before. Late at nite and wasn't clearly thinking.

[WDA_Slayer]

I'd hardly think that Grin and UBI would screw themselves by doing such a thing.

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Too bad, I rather like the idea of them screwing themselves...

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Why? So people would have more to complan about? Give me a break, if you want GR:AW to fail why even bother visiting forums and making that post? You want them to fall on their face, then don't buy the game and take yourself away from the series.

and yadda, yadda, yadda...

[/rant]

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I may be mistaken, but I'll defend connie lingus. I don't think their comment implied they want to see "GR:AW Fail", I think the comment meant they wanted to see UBI and GRIN screw themselves, you know, in the other, more comical way. At least that's the way I read it. So, to me it seems like your rant was unwarranted. However, rest assurred there are enough people out there that are complaining, so it applies somewhere.

Me, I'm rooting for GRIN as hard as anyone, but I don't think it's going to be released March 31. We've been lied to and deceived too many times for me to have any trust and/or confidence in either of the companies.

Also, people who think the game will be released solely because UBI/GRIN have spent a lot of time and money on it are completely mistaken. In the business world money that's already spent is a sunk cost - it cannot be recouped and should have absolutely zero bearing on any future decision. Unfortunately this is one of the most common mistakes people make, but large corporations and smart business usually get it right.

[kingsheridan]

I'd hardly think that Grin and UBI would screw themselves by doing such a thing.

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Too bad, I rather like the idea of them screwing themselves...

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Why? So people would have more to complan about? Give me a break, if you want GR:AW to fail why even bother visiting forums and making that post? You want them to fall on their face, then don't buy the game and take yourself away from the series.

and yadda, yadda, yadda...

[/rant]

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I may be mistaken, but I'll defend connie lingus. I don't think their comment implied they want to see "GR:AW Fail", I think the comment meant they wanted to see UBI and GRIN screw themselves, you know, in the other, more comical way. At least that's the way I read it.

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Same here, i can't believe he took that seriously lol.

[NYR_32]

Same here, i can't believe he took that seriously lol.

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It doesn't matter if I took that seriously or not. It just gave me the oppurtunity to express my opinion on a lot of subjects(one which I share with plenty of people). If people choose to ignore what I said I don't really care, but maybe a few people will read it and understand why I said what I did.

[Janie42]

Also, people who think the game will be released solely because UBI/GRIN have spent a lot of time and money on it are completely mistaken.  In the business world money that's already spent is a sunk cost - it cannot be recouped and should have absolutely zero bearing on any future decision.  Unfortunately this is one of the most common mistakes people make, but large corporations and smart business usually get it right.

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Yes... Absolutely true, and that projects are often dumped is easily verified by anyone working in any branch of any kind of software development business. Wait... we don't need that. Just think GR2-PC!

[Janie42]

. . . UBI owns the rights to the names, storylines etc. they can do whatever they want. . . They can do whatever they neeed to to make money.

. . . Accept that fact, if you don't like it, find something else to do with your free time, because every publisher has one goal in mind, the all mighty dollar and mainstream titles are what makes the big money, not niche markets.

. . . RSE and GRIN are doing what they can to a make a great game.  Believe it or not the people making the content give a damn about what we think. [/rant]

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Okay, I'll risk getting a bashing from NYR_32. Does anyone else see rather an odd contradiction via the exerpts from this post? Surely it's not only me? Is it that our feedback gets integrated by Ubi/RSE to help give them a mainstream title? Ubi/RSE/GRIN cares about our feedback/us? If they "care," then per NYR_32's "money rules," which I agree with, the caring ceases immediate that (a) development/launch money runs out, or (b) there's a more profitable place for them to devote their caring to! Not what I'd call dependable caring! Pessimist that I am, I do not believe Ubi/RSE gives a rat's whiskers about us, but in all honesty, I can't think why I'd expect them to? Now go easy on me, NYR_32!

[NYR_32]

Making a game that is accessible to the mainstream gamer doesn't mean they have totally abandon core elements that make the Red Storm franchises fun to play. Making it so more people can pickup the game, and play it doesn't prevent the "hardcore" from playing the way they want to.

I've had the pleasure of meeting a number of people from Red Storm, and I know for a fact that those who say that they "do not care" are wrong. There is no argument there, so no-one should even try. These people are gamers themselves, and understand that the dedicated fans really, really love GR and R6. They aren't out to screw people over, contrary to what some people believe. About a year ago someone(I won't name him, if you want to find out you can search) put up a post saying something to the effect that "Red Storm doesn't care", it took him a year to find out he was wrong. He got the chance to visit the studio and his opinion was changed.

Yes they have to make the games more main-stream because thats what the publisher wants. With the costs for these games going up, they have to cater to the larger market of casual gamers. That doesn't mean the feedback from people on forums isn't taken into account. Look at the GR2 PC forum, go back to some of the old wishlist threads and see what people from here were asking for. You'll find a good deal of these features in GR2 and now GR:AW. People here asked for them, RSE gave us them. They care. All of this negativity doesn't do anything to help, they are just going to overlook it.

If people want to make a difference don't just post "Thats dumb", or "UBI sucks", why do you dislike what you see? "Oh I don't like the way you can see around objects in OTS, maybe when you get close to it the camera could zoom in or something." That would be a good response, IMO there isn't nearly enough of those types of posts as there used to be. Those are the types of things that may have an affect on the end products.

I've been reading the section of the forum only because I'm a moderator, for months now. If I didn't have to read it I wouldn't, and I know I'm not the only person who avoids this section. Why? Because its full if repetitive, negative discussions. Yeah you may be ###### about how UBI does their marketing, I don't like it either, but does it have to be brought up over and over? What does that accomplish? Nothing.

My long posts tonight probably won't have much affect on people but what the hell, I gave it a shot.

[connie lingus]

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My long posts tonight probably won't have much affect on people but what the hell, I gave it a shot.

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I for one, really appreciate your efforts...

[connie lingus]

Making a game that is accessible to the mainstream gamer doesn't mean they have totally abandon core elements that make the Red Storm franchises fun to play.  Making it so more people can pickup the game, and play it doesn't prevent the "hardcore" from playing the way the they want to.

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OK, seriously now:

What a difficult goal!

I cannot think of one game that has sucessfully done that yet, I hope it works but I have to doubt it.

The original GR and R6 was successful precisely because it was a niche market game.

All the games I play to date are not popular with the mainstream and are not for everyone, which is fine with me because it weeds out a lot of bad players, and makes for better gaming communities.

I think making a one-size-fits-all will be a bad compromise but I really hope it works!

I've seen how leaving it all up to individual server settings and/ or "reality" mods to season the game to one's liking has the effect of watering down the particular gaming community even further.

The unaltered "vanilla" game is what is usually the only accepted version in ladders and competitions.

[Janie42]

My long posts tonight probably won't have much affect on people but what the hell, I gave it a shot.

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I for one, really appreciate your efforts...

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Me too - & shucks, thanks for being so nice NYR_32!

[WhiteKnight77]

If people want to make a difference don't just post "Thats dumb", or "UBI sucks", why do you dislike what you see?  "Oh I don't like the way you can see around objects in OTS, maybe when you get close to it the camera could zoom in or something." That would be a good response, IMO there isn't nearly enough of those types of posts as there used to be.  Those are the types of things that may have an affect on the end products.

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The thing is, people have stated that certain features insult a persons intelligence or will allow people to cheat yet said features are still in the game. I won't go into what features. That is when more people start stating that it's dumb.

RSE could and has already told Ubi that they are going to do such and such (at least with LD) instead of doing something else. With GRAW featuring different types of gameplay depending on what platform you choose to play on will begin to alienate the gamers that were originally drawn to the franchise to begin with and give new gamers reason to pause thinking, why did they do that or why should I buy this? This has already happened with GRAW with people wondering why there are different views and gameplay? The worst part of it is,eventually, the only difference in games will be the engine, skins on characters and settings. Gameplay will be the same no matter the name on the box. Why would anyone buy a game then? What would diffentiate one game from another? How woudl a company strive to earn my dollar by buying their game over someone else?

NYR, just like me, you enjoy NASCAR Racing by Papy. Why is that? Yes it's fun, but what is the underlying reason? For me, it's the fact that it makes me work to get the car to run right. Wonder why Rocky likes it? Many people play it due to the fact it is unlike anything else out there in the racing genre. It has never tried to fit the "mainstream", yet the Papy franchise is popular and it is still being recommended 3 years after it's release, just like GR is 4 years after it's release.

I have said my pieces about how Ubi has messed up RSE franchises. I won't say anymore, but know this, I plan on spending around $10,000 on a PC later this year. I may even spring for the custom paint job for it. I will want games to play on it. If Ubi can't publish or even develop games I like, I will spend my money elsewhere. Sure, I will be a drop in the bucket, but when most of my current games are from Ubi, that should tell them something.

[meade95]

If people want to make a difference don't just post "Thats dumb", or "UBI sucks", why do you dislike what you see?  "Oh I don't like the way you can see around objects in OTS, maybe when you get close to it the camera could zoom in or something." That would be a good response, IMO there isn't nearly enough of those types of posts as there used to be.  Those are the types of things that may have an affect on the end products.

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The thing is, people have stated that certain features insult a persons intelligence or will allow people to cheat yet said features are still in the game. I won't go into what features. That is when more people start stating that it's dumb.

RSE could and has already told Ubi that they are going to do such and such (at least with LD) instead of doing something else. With GRAW featuring different types of gameplay depending on what platform you choose to play on will begin to alienate the gamers that were originally drawn to the franchise to begin with and give new gamers reason to pause thinking, why did they do that or why should I buy this? This has already happened with GRAW with people wondering why there are different views and gameplay? The worst part of it is,eventually, the only difference in games will be the engine, skins on characters and settings. Gameplay will be the same no matter the name on the box. Why would anyone buy a game then? What would diffentiate one game from another? How woudl a company strive to earn my dollar by buying their game over someone else?

NYR, just like me, you enjoy NASCAR Racing by Papy. Why is that? Yes it's fun, but what is the underlying reason? For me, it's the fact that it makes me work to get the car to run right. Wonder why Rocky likes it? Many people play it due to the fact it is unlike anything else out there in the racing genre. It has never tried to fit the "mainstream", yet the Papy franchise is popular and it is still being recommended 3 years after it's release, just like GR is 4 years after it's release.

I agree completely with this sentiment -

I understand the idea behind the "business" side of UBI wanting to look for more of a "mass-market"....but that is only short-term business thinking...and will hurt them in the long run (it already has in some areas).

GR & R6 were originally great because they were based on being true tactical shooters.....not run and gun arcade type games - That is what made them successful....and did so for so long..........

Putting out another game to fill the "arcade" style would have been a wiser move -

At the same time an anvenue for a new company / game to fill the void that GR/R6 has left is availiable now too - And will happen -

I still hope for GRAW.......but I'll wait and see / hear feedback before buying.

[Colin]

I thought this post was just to confirm the release date?

You can slag the game off or praise it when its released.

No point in doing before hand.

[Ruin]

I plan on spending around $10,000 on a PC later this year.

Hey, if I give you the other $3,000 can we buy me a new car? I just want a base model 2006 Civic, you know, something new and clean that will last me a good 10 - 15 years, probably longer.

As for the paintjob, I painted my computer for $4, not much springing to do. So go for it!

NYR, correct me if I'm wrong... but I think that you made this pretty clear, and I would have to agree...

This all comes from such a constant repetative negativity found in this forum.

There have been many times where I want to post a "What the Heck is Wrong with You People?!?!?!" thread. But I don't. I realize it's not worth it... but I'm going to.

There are a few things that have to be undertstood here... in the most boiled down fashion possbile.

1) GRAW is in production and will be released.

2) If you don't like it, don't buy it.

2a) Don't come here and ###### about it or make fun of people who like the game and want to buy it.

3) Don't demand ANYTHING of the devs. We are SO lucky that they're even making another installment to our game. We should bow down and be happy that they haven't left GR in gaming history and moved on to something else.

3a) Do NOT demand screenshots, videos or a demo. Allow them to take their time. The longer they spend on it (in theory) the better it will be.

4) The release date is the release date. If it changes.... WHO CARES?! Surely you all have something else to do to keep yourselves entertained until then. No one here LIVES on the computer do they? Seriously guy, if you want it, pre-order it, and wait for it to show up on your door step. If you don't want it bad enough to pre-order, then you don't have ANY right to whine about the release date being moved back.

5) We are privelaged to have Devs, and people who are friendly with the Devs, reading this forum. How good would your work ethic be if the group you were working for constantly bashed you and said only negative things? It is counter productive to whine and complain and bash the devs and make comments (even jokingly) about wanting to see them fail. It's just rude.

I could go on...

The fact is there is WAY too many ill feelings in here, and you "Debbie Downers" are destroying it for the rest of us. We all learned as kids "If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all." Excersize that, PLEASE for goodness sake. I don't want to hear any more negative comments in this forum. It's rediculous. It's a computer game for crying out loud. We're lucky to see it pre-Release at all. They could have said "Ok, we're working on it... see you when it comes out."

Quit looking a gift-horse in the mouth. We are so lucky to have this pre-release information availible in one nice and neat forum.

This has been eating at me since GR2, which people are obviously still sore over (wahhh, deal with it). I posted something like this privatley, but I think the collective whole needs to see that there are people who feel the same way I do (and chances are, they wont post here, lol).

Seriously guys, take a chill pill. A PC game is not worth getting upset over (to clarify, I'm not upset over the game, I'm upset with people and their lousy attitudes).

This isn't a rant, this is the honest truth. Take it or leave it, I know some of you will pick it apart, whatever, I don't care. It's been said, and it's staying here unless a staff member feels the need to remove it.

[NYR_32]

NYR, just like me, you enjoy NASCAR Racing by Papy. Why is that? Yes it's fun, but what is the underlying reason? For me, it's the fact that it makes me work to get the car to run right. Wonder why Rocky likes it? Many people play it due to the fact it is unlike anything else out there in the racing genre. It has never tried to fit the "mainstream", yet the Papy franchise is popular and it is still being recommended 3 years after it's release, just like GR is 4 years after it's release.

For people who love racing, NR2003 is the best oval sim out there. But a lot of people do not like the steep learning curve. Once Papy lost the Nascar license what happened? They were shut down by Sierra. Why? Because their previous titles, including arguably the best road racing game sim ever, GPL, sold only 200,000 copies. Why would Sierra fund a "GPL2" only to see it flop? They didn't want to, so they closed Papy. Yeah their sims are awesome, but to the broader audience they aren't appealing. Papy is back however, but as a totally different animal. They are now known as "iRacing.com Motorsports Simulations", and are being privately funded by a very, very rich sim racer (John Henry, the owner of the Boston Red Sox) who can afford to lose some money. But investors in UBI aren't going to be as accepting as John Henry is.

People have to accept that they do not own these series, the "me me me" thing has to stop. For everyone who says UBI has to earn their money, there are people like me who accept the new games for what they are, and will have fun with them. When GR becomes Unreal Tournament then maybe people will have a vaild argument that it has become an "arcade" game. For now people need to take the blinders off and realize that, mainstreaming games is the direction the entire industry is going (spare a few groups who have the funding to cater to a niche, like sim racing). People still go to see movies, right? Even though many of them are full of recycled ideas, and worn out storylines. Its the same thing for games, and many other forms of entertainment.

There will come a time when there will be a renaissance of sorts in the industry, but that time isn't now. People need to find the fun in current offerings, or find a new thing to do with their spare time, because in the end games are for fun.

[smokin]

People are talking like this FPS tac sim "niche" is nothing but chop liver.

Mainstreaming GR or R6 game to the masses is a huge miscalculation IMO. The game as origianllyy designed way back when rouge spear came out proved that it was a winning formula. They got #1 game of the year, they attracted TONS of players, and it was THE game to play for most FPS fans. Mainstreaming only means to me that they take away what made these titles unique and stand apart from the others. The Tom Clancey name and the the Rep previous titles gained can only last so long.

Thats cool if you are OK with what you are getting or the trend games are taking, but personally I find that I've been loosing interesting in gaming. This isnt UBI's fualt, or Red Storm's, its game dev as a whole who chose to focus on graphics and uninteresting gameplay. Falling into a monkey see monkey do attitude.

That being said,I got the game on preorder.