Number of soldiers in gameplay

[Tortfeaser]

Hi folks -

My question is - what is the reason, in programming/game design that we are limited in GRAW to 4 players. Is team size such a basic element of game construction that it is way too late to change it now? the question of 4 team members came up in another thread, and i thought this is so important that it may warrant it's own thread, to determine whether it is too late to change it, whether modding can change it, or even to perhaps explain why it is good for us or any benefits (does gameplayrun faster with fewer players? )etc. Please dumb it down for me - thanks.

Edited November 13, 2005 by Tortfeaser

[RatoN]

I think it’s all about the average hardware.

From publisher’s point of view, you would want to sell as many copies of the game as possible, and not exclusively target the people who have the most performing comps. Or make people spend 2000$ to upgrade their rigs before they can play the game. So

you reduce the system recommended specs so that the majority of gamers can actually play that game. And you do that by reducing the number of AI’s especially if they are smart and demand lots of system resources/calculation.

The number of ghosts is proportional to the number of enemy AI’s

That would also explain why there are no civilians. The number of ghost vs. enemy AI’s

is already very demanding to the average gaming comp.

Think of it as the replays situation. More physics and destroyable environments = no replays

More intelligent and challenging AI’s opponents = less of them therefore less ghost.

hey! That’s what we’ve been asking for.

[Tortfeaser]

AHA! thanks Raton- so what I'm hearing is:

1. EnemyAI need to be smarter -able to carry out complex intel gathering, reactions, sequences

2. this increase AI requires more computer horsepower

3. More horsepower when compared to today's computers = problems: solution, limit the number of enemy AI (they probably arrived at a max number of AI and used this number as a standard factor)

4. limiting the number of AI means with 8 ghosts the game would not be challenging enough

5. so limit the number of ghosts to 4 to make it more challenging..

is this about right?

if so, then what happens in 2 years when computer power is much greater than it is now? Can you increase number of players with a patch?

[RatoN]

Absolutely

As for adding extra ghosts from the game’s editor, I’m not so sure it will be feasible.

[Sup]

I'm near certain it's a more conceptual choice.

It wouldn't hurt the engine to add two more ghosts. GR2/3 want to go down the small squad route gameplay wise.

[RatoN]

Could very well be bro, and wouldn’t be the first time me being wrong

anywho, more info is needed to evaluate these things

maybe THE man can help us...

[Colin]

Reducing the number in the command and control system gives other options in other areas which make the game more playable and more wildly usable for more players.

Being able to call in extra assets is also a bonus, another reason for less men.

The CC system and command system will help eleviate the need for extra members, also the kit choices are exstensive.

I would imagine if this game had been done say in 12 months time and utilised 64 bit, extra members would not have been a problem.

See what the future for this game will produce.

Colin

[Snowy]

if so, then what happens in 2 years when computer power is much greater than it is now?  Can you increase number of players with a patch?

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thats gonna depend on the implementation of the code, with regards to how ghosts interact, you have to bare in mind all the command systems, plus cross-com will all be set up to deal with 4 ghosts.....cud be an easy adaptation, mite be tricky......i wud imagine that GRIN wud be looking to keep it as open as possible, makes patches and add-ons easier to work on, but i'm not an expert programmer yet (3 years more of the degree to go ) so it mite not be possible/or helpful to do this.....

[meade95]

Only having 4 Ghosts is just dumb - In that only a 4 man assault team in the real world assaults nothing!

A 4-man team would be nothing more then a RT - Gathering Intel - They would not be used for any type of direct assault (alone)- For that a larger (at least 8) to 12 man team would be called in -

R6 has always had 8 to 10 players allowed - GR has always had 8 allowed - It is silly and "arcade" to drop down to 4 Ghosts -

A 4-man team conducting any type of direct assaults drops the realism level big time.

[DonMiguel]

not to disagree with other ideas, but I think its very likely that like GR2 the biggest reason they changed it to 4 men (no matter what sugarcoated reasons they give) was to make it easier to shift the game from console to pc. Yes, GRAW is being made by GRIT for the PC but they probably started with alot of the framework already done. It's probably much more cost effective to just go with certain framework elements then try to redesign them from the ground up, not to mention the delay it'd bring.

As far as resource impact, like suggested, adding a few more slots for player controlled men would not hurt gameplay. Most people playing these games on the PC already have a system with more then enough power to handle more men.

In either case, I'm hoping GRIT paid close attention to the large mod community GR1 had that it's developing GRAW with open modding abilities for us all to enjoy for a long time

[Kurtz]

I see a mod - GRAW SP Platoon Extender.....by......

Edited November 13, 2005 by Kurtz

[RedHerring]

This was really a key point for me in this game. A 4 man team brings a bigger problem then just fire and manuever. What happens if your 203 or AR gets killed... you're without any heavy weapons support. Or if you only have one man with anti-tank capabilities and he gets shot - what's gonna happen? I'm pretty sure that GRIN won't let us pick up weapons from fallen comrades, so it'll be a mission critical problem.

Plus, and WK you may be able to answer this question, with the "hero" focus we have on the game now... will the mission end if your character is killed?

Hopefully it won't be long before a GRAW Platoon Extender comes out. That was the coolest thing in GR.

[Colin]

The game is based on the near future.

What may be now, takes a 8 or 10 man to complete missions, in the future a four man team will be able to do the same task.

A four man team makes perfect sence.

In real life people have been working in four man teams for years.

Some of you guys want your cake, made, baked, and eaten for you.

A four man team is what we are getting, its nothing to do with UBI, in reality 1 man normally controls his team of 4 8 10 or what ever the number.

[buddhiraja73]

Hi folks -

My question is - what is the reason, in programming/game design that we are limited in GRAW to 4 players.  Is team size such a basic element of game construction that it is way too late to change it now?  the question of 4 team members came up in another thread, and i thought this is so important that it may warrant it's own thread, to determine whether it is too late to change it, whether modding can change it, or even to perhaps explain why it is good for us or any benefits (does gameplayrun faster with fewer players? )etc.  Please dumb it down for me - thanks.

This point, about only one fireteam of 4, is my only real worry about GRAW. I am happy about most other features. GR was an 'action + strategy' game and one of the biggest factors contributing to the strategy element was the multiple fireteam. With this gone, the number of possible strategies, that we can plan and implement, would be severely limited. It can be argued that we can split up the four man team but this would not be an effective strategy if faced with enemies numbering 6 or more. So, in a way GRAW has changed it's genre from GR.

UBI might say that the average or casual gamer was having problems with handling more than one team and hence it was simplified to one team only. I don't agree. This problem can be easily solved by having the default setting as one team of 4. The more advanced gamer can have another team of 4 if he so chooses.

I don't know whether GRIN's Diesel engine would have problem handling 2 teams in ordinary machines. Even if this is the case, it can be solved by allowing the player to choose the number of fireteams he wants. It can be clearly stated in the team selection screen that ' if the player is having a lower end machine then it is advisable to have only 1 fireteam '. I personally think that system limitation is not the reason for reducing the munber of teams and it is more a policy decision. I might be wrong though.

Given the fact that GRAW will have only one team of 4, what is the way out ? How can we make the strategy element stronger ? I had read somewhere that there will be other friendlies in some missions and they maybe controlled by the player. Can this be a solution ? Can the other friendlies be made a permanent fixture in all missions if the player wants ? Can this be incorporated now ? Also, can the multiple fireteams be modded into GRAW ? Only GRIN can answer.

Edited November 13, 2005 by buddhiraja73

[Tortfeaser]

I certainly didn't mean to evoke controversy, just wondering why the 4 man decision was made, and if it can be changed by the devs or modded out by us.

i have no complaints about it. Sure, I like 8 or 9, but 4 players is a bona fide fire team and I'm fine with that.

[RatoN]

technical discussion about GRAW

We have been asking for more tactical options now we have them in the form of high tech gadgets, UAV, air support, medic, modular weapons etc. That will create more choices as to how to go about the missions. More strategically options, more replay value.

Not trying to defend Ubi here or go against what my Bros have said above, but how does having more men bunched up and inseparable per team creates tactical opportunities? I don't get it.

Remember that this episode of GR takes place in the future, a ghost constitute a one man gang.

Just imagine what would happen if there were more ghosts, we would crush all opposing forces within 15 mins; they don’t even have helmets for St sakes! I’m even considering joining up with the rebel forces cause I feel sorry for them!

[buddhiraja73]

technical discussion about GRAW 

We have been asking for more tactical options now we have them in the form of high tech gadgets, UAV, air support, medic, modular weapons etc. That will create more choices as to how to go about the missions. More strategically options, more replay value.

You are right about the fact that GRIN and UBI are giving us many features that we wanted and we are really thankful for that. As I said in the previous post --apart from this point, I am happy about most other features in GRAW and I think GRIN is doing a great job.

Not trying to defend Ubi here or go against what my Bros have said above, but how does having more men bunched up and inseparable per team creates tactical opportunities? I don't get it.

Remember that this episode of GR takes place in the future, a ghost constitute a one man gang.

Just imagine what would happen if there were more ghosts, we would crush all opposing forces within 15 mins; they don’t even have helmets for St sakes! I’m even considering joining up with the rebel forces cause I feel sorry for them!

Nice way of putting it.

It is true that with advanced technology on our side, the need for more buddies might decrease BUT there are many situations where they are needed like

- there are many enemies and they are intelligent. OR

- the need to attack from various sides might arise or might be the best option. Think about this scenario -- We have to take over a large building in Mexico City and we want to attack it from 3 sides. With 4 men only, we would have to have 2 squads of 1 each and 1 squad of 2. In such a case, the squads will have no one watching their backs and they maybe easily flanked or reared. OR

- The enemies are controlling a choke point and their position is so advantageous compared to us that to take over the point realistically, we would need at least 2 squads. Breaking up the 4 man squad and having a squad of 1 or 2 would make them more vulnerable to flanking attacks.

Multiple squads are not always required but it is good to have that option for using them in certain situations, especially if the AI is good.

Edited November 13, 2005 by buddhiraja73

[meade95]

The game is based on the near future.

What may be now, takes a 8 or 10 man to complete missions, in the future a four man team will be able to do the same task.

A four man team makes perfect sence.

In real life people have been working in four man teams for years.

Some of you guys want your cake, made, baked, and eaten for you.

A four man team is what we are getting, its nothing to do with UBI, in reality 1 man normally controls his team of 4 8 10 or what ever the number.

←

A four man team will never be an assault element - Assault teams will always be made up of several fire teams (between 2-4 fire teams = 8 to 16 men).

The idea of the Ghosts is that of a unit that is sent in ahead of time to do more then just gather Intel (and or call in airstikes).

While if this was a RT (recon team) for example, a 4 to 6 man unit would make sense - But there is no way a 4-man team would be used as a sole assault force. No way.

RT gather Intel, call in airstrikes and also call in the assault teams (which will be made up of 8-16 + men).

[meade95]

technical discussion about GRAW 

We have been asking for more tactical options now we have them in the form of high tech gadgets, UAV, air support, medic, modular weapons etc. That will create more choices as to how to go about the missions. More strategically options, more replay value.

You are right about the fact that GRIN and UBI are giving us many features that we wanted and we are really thankful for that. As I said in the previous post --apart from this point, I am happy about most other features in GRAW and I think GRIN is doing a great job.

Not trying to defend Ubi here or go against what my Bros have said above, but how does having more men bunched up and inseparable per team creates tactical opportunities? I don't get it.

Remember that this episode of GR takes place in the future, a ghost constitute a one man gang.

Just imagine what would happen if there were more ghosts, we would crush all opposing forces within 15 mins; they don’t even have helmets for St sakes! I’m even considering joining up with the rebel forces cause I feel sorry for them!

Nice way of putting it.

It is true that with advanced technology on our side, the need for more buddies might decrease BUT there are many situations where they are needed like

- there are many enemies and they are intelligent. OR

- the need to attack from various sides might arise or might be the best option. Think about this scenario -- We have to take over a large building in Mexico City and we want to attack it from 3 sides. With 4 men only, we would have to have 2 squads of 1 each and 1 squad of 2. In such a case, the squads will have no one watching their backs and they maybe easily flanked or reared. OR

- The enemies are controlling a choke point and their position is so advantageous compared to us that to take over the point realistically, we would need at least 2 squads. Breaking up the 4 man squad and having a squad of 1 or 2 would make them more vulnerable to flanking attacks.

Multiple squads are not always required but it is good to have that option for using them in certain situations, especially if the AI is good.

←

But that is exactly the purpose of SOF units - To bring maxium firepower and maxium destruction to enemy forces in a short period of time.

Small SOF units are not built to sustain long firefights - They are there to get things over in 15 min or less once the lead starts flying!

[RatoN]

Nice way of putting it.   

←

i have my moments

…We have to take over a large building in Mexico City and we want to attack it from 3 sides. With 4 men only, we would have to have 2 squads of 1 each and 1 squad of 2. In such a case, the squads will have no one watching their backs and they maybe easily flanked or reared. OR

←

how bout

1. send the UAV to gather intelligence so you know what to expect at 75%

2. then split the team in 4 individuals, one stays out, on a roof as a sniper.

3. stay in contact with the UAV to see the situation at all times, to watch their backs and not to get flanked or reared.

- The enemies are controlling a choke point and their position is so advantageous compared to us that to take over the point realistically, we would need at least 2 squads. Breaking up the 4 man squad and having a squad of 1 or 2 would make them more vulnerable to flanking attacks.

←

1. if no hostages/prisoners, call in an air strike. If yes go to step 2

2. take out targets of opportunity with the sniper

3. stay in contact with the eye in the sky not to get surprised

4. move in from 4 different directions

Multiple squads are not always required but it is good to have that option for using them in certain situations, especially if the AI is good.

←

see Budd, the sequence of events use to be; advance, move team B, move team C, watch your map to see if any red dots would appear, get shot or shoot, advance again etc. You as leader would have a rendez-vous with casualties no matter how careful you would be or how many times you restarted the same mission. That was the nature of the game. All the members were necessary then because you would loose men while trying to take a position not because 3 men was better then 1. If i give you the choice between 16 men in one team, and 6 men in 3 team, what would you choose?...i thought so.

With GRAW the sequence will be different. There will be no need to take casualties to advance. It’s more of a scientific or stealthy approach yet more destructive force if need be, depending on the situation or what mood you’re in.

[Tortfeaser]

The game is based on the near future.

What may be now, takes a 8 or 10 man to complete missions, in the future a four man team will be able to do the same task.

A four man team makes perfect sence.

In real life people have been working in four man teams for years.

Some of you guys want your cake, made, baked, and eaten for you.

A four man team is what we are getting, its nothing to do with UBI, in reality 1 man normally controls his team of 4 8 10 or what ever the number.

←

A four man team will never be an assault element - Assault teams will always be made up of several fire teams (between 2-4 fire teams = 8 to 16 men).

The idea of the Ghosts is that of a unit that is sent in ahead of time to do more then just gather Intel (and or call in airstikes).

While if this was a RT (recon team) for example, a 4 to 6 man unit would make sense - But there is no way a 4-man team would be used as a sole assault force. No way.

RT gather Intel, call in airstrikes and also call in the assault teams (which will be made up of 8-16 + men).

←

reading that gave me a chuckle. crack open your SH 21-76 (Ranger Handbook) and turn to 6-11 "squad attack." A 4 man fire team can most certainly serve as an assault element.

[meade95]

The game is based on the near future.

What may be now, takes a 8 or 10 man to complete missions, in the future a four man team will be able to do the same task.

A four man team makes perfect sence.

In real life people have been working in four man teams for years.

Some of you guys want your cake, made, baked, and eaten for you.

A four man team is what we are getting, its nothing to do with UBI, in reality 1 man normally controls his team of 4 8 10 or what ever the number.

←

A four man team will never be an assault element - Assault teams will always be made up of several fire teams (between 2-4 fire teams = 8 to 16 men).

The idea of the Ghosts is that of a unit that is sent in ahead of time to do more then just gather Intel (and or call in airstikes).

While if this was a RT (recon team) for example, a 4 to 6 man unit would make sense - But there is no way a 4-man team would be used as a sole assault force. No way.

RT gather Intel, call in airstrikes and also call in the assault teams (which will be made up of 8-16 + men).

←

reading that gave me a chuckle. crack open your SH 21-76 (Ranger Handbook) and turn to 6-11 "squad attack." A 4 man fire team can most certainly serve as an assault element.

←

You need to read my three posts in full (not just one) - My point being solely a 4-man unit will never be sent in (alone) as an assault force - And you make my point for me. They could be PART of an assault ELEMENT....but they would not be the FULL ELEMENT by themselves.

There are 4-man RT (in 5th SOF, in the SEALs, Delta and Rangers) but this 4-man RT will then call in the strike (assault) team - Which will consist of sevearl 4-man fire teams combined!!

You would never see D-Boys, ST6 conduct an assault with a simple 4-man team. Not gonna happen! Their "Gold" Assault teams are always made up of at least 8-men + (min of two fire teams).

4-man Teams (alone) are for Intel & calling in strikes - OR - they are one part fire of a larger assault unit (meaning they are one fire team of a combined number of fire teams conducting the assault) -

But no, you would never see simply a 4-man team try and be an assault unit on its own without additional fire teams as part of their group.

Edited November 14, 2005 by meade95

[buddhiraja73]

…We have to take over a large building in Mexico City and we want to attack it from 3 sides. With 4 men only, we would have to have 2 squads of 1 each and 1 squad of 2. In such a case, the squads will have no one watching their backs and they maybe easily flanked or reared. OR

←

how bout

1. send the UAV to gather intelligence so you know what to expect at 75%

2. then split the team in 4 individuals, one stays out, on a roof as a sniper.

3. stay in contact with the UAV to see the situation at all times, to watch their backs and not to get flanked or reared.

Just think of the scenario I described about the building takeover. Let's suppose that we have multiple fireteams and they are attacking from the front and sides. The enemies come out from the back of the building and try to flank one of the squads attacking from the side. Because of the 4 man team, the squad is able to spot the attack and it retreats. The squad attacking from the front now shoots at the enemy squad and they in turn retreat and plans another attack. Don't you think this would give rise to a very interesting gameplay ? This is just an example I have used and there can be hundreds of such scenarios. If we can carry out this method, as well as the one you described while replaying the mission, then it would bring variation to the gameplay and increase replayability.

Also, collecting intel from 'inside buildings' might not be easy. Further, sending drones might make the enemy aware as it had been said that the enemies may spot it and then they will try to shoot it down and call in reinforcements. So, it might not be the best plan to use drones always and they may warrant selective usage. Considering the example of airstrikes, it would not be too much fun if every difficult situation is diffused by calling airstrikes. Afterall we are playing the game to enjoy it.

I think that the option to use multiple squads would expand gameplay because a lot of the gamers like using multiple squads in certain situations. Those who do not like it would have the option of not using it. If the enemy AI can carry out squad maneuvers and react to the change in strategy by the player then the gameplay would go to the next higher level.

It has been an interesting and entertaining discussion with you.

Regards

buddhiraja

Edited November 14, 2005 by buddhiraja73

[stevenmu]

The impression I've got from reading the various bits of info we've gotten so far is that there will be other squads operating on the maps, or some of them at least, and at times the player can take control of them. There are also other assets in theater/game, such as air strikes, close air support (somebody better make a mod to let us fly those apaches ), artillery etc...

This tells me two things, one is that the 4 man squad is a design choice, not a hardware limitation. The second (and I may just be getting overly excited here), is that your ghosts aren't operating as a lone force, which they more or less did in [GR], but rather as part of a wider picture. For e.g. one mission may be to assault a rebel encampment. You get inserted at one point in the map, other ghost teams outside your control are inserted at other points. Enroute to the camp, you knock out some air defenses allowing air support to come in and take out some APCs blocking your path. The other ghost squads perform similar small tasks before you all join up to assault the camp itself.

That's the kind of integrated approach I'm hoping GRAW will have, and the feeling that you're part of wider campaign, with other events not directly related to you going on around you.

[Logos]

May I suggest that it's too early to be judging the decision to limit play to a four-person team. We haven't seen the missions yet.

The setting is Mexico city, right? Might the fact that gameplay changing from wilderness to an urban setting mean that ONE four-person team makes more sense?

And don't the artie and airstrikes you can call in make up for not having other teams?

I just don't see much of a problem, especially since we haven't even played on the maps to know if there IS a problem. I'm betting there won't be.

--Logos