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Change of Mindset!


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So I'm at work and this cranky arsed New Yorker is Bitchin at me cause he didn't get his case of paper at 8:00 am like some ###### co-worker of mine told him he would. Then all of a sudden his perfect english turns from "when is my paper gonna get here" to blah blah blah blaaaahhhhhhh!!!! because I just had a brain fart about GR:AW and how maximum 4 man co-op is goin to effect all multi-player in a negative way.

Alot of the time ya start out a server with 3 or 4 people just messin around with some defend, firefight, or maybe the odd mission while you're waitin for the general public to show up. Those are all co-op style games which is fine untill people start trying to join the server and they can't because 4 of 4 slots are full. Which is completely fixable by not turning to co-op mode and just sittin around with your thumb up your butt waiting for people to join ( I hate Waiting !!! :o= ). Alot of good night's playin GR have started out with a half a dozen Co-op games.

Now I realize that the setup for GR:AW Will be different Than GR but does anyone else see my point and the possible problems that could arrise from having a 4 person Max for co-op play?

I'd like to here other peoples thoughts on what kind of effects and how they might be worked around ...

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You bring up some good points, but the biggest problem is the fact that Ubi (not GRIN) wanted to take GR to a hero character game (dumb move) that only has 4 members of a team. This lack of a larger team will affect Coop play as there are many who prefer Coop to TvT. The lack of a larger team will affect it big time. When I hosted, I always had a Coop server running. Once the 10th person joined we had to go to TvT or FFA until it dropped under 10 again. We played all the missions, Recon (always took the longest route to the extraction zone) and Defend (was a blast trying to keep the enemy from overrunning your position and capturing the base.

Hopefully, there will be a way to do like some of the talented modders have and create a larger team for Coop.

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Co-op servers were usually the only GR servers I played in. Hero characters? As in turning each Ghost you play as into a super human that can take out hundreds of enemies w/o taking a hit? I think I have a problem with that. If multiplayer co-op missions will be limited to 4 players it'll really suck. In reality there's only so much a group of 4 well trained military personel with advanced weaponry can do against a larger group of enemies (even if they're behind in technology). I'm hoping Ghost Recon will be more simulation based.

Edited by Erick
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4-man teams? - I don't think so... :(

what is the point of the link? To show a SEAL team formed with more than 4 operators? The US army squad is a nine man team. one squad leader, and two teams of 4. The teams of 4 consist of a team leader, automatic rifleman, rifleman, and grenadier.

remember that operators working with the teams don't always consist of a 12 man A team, it can be configured less than, or more than, 12.

The 4 man team is the basic combat unit. it is basically two buddy teams. One two man buddy team is the smallest combat unit that can move in a formation called "bounding overwatch."

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Just goes to show you when you want something approaching a sense of realism this won't be from GR:AW or UBI. Oh well. More of the "you'll play the game the way we want you to" kind of thought. No creative thinking, no chance to really exercise your mind. IE lets gear to the kids and the....... (nevermind sometimes even I can excerise some amount of self control :devil: )

Stout Hearts

|RE|Warhawk

Edited by warhawk
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What no one has mentioned is the detrimental effect 4 man Co-op could have on Teams.

In Tactical Elite or GRNET as we play GR under we regularly have upwards of 6 people on our server playing all forms of Co-op games be it Firefight, Mission, Preachers run, Defend etc. In practices we can have 10 or more.

This 4 man Co-op will fragment a group of gamers that have stuck with GR solely because of the fact that you can play against the missions with your friends not just a select few.

We will now have to split our roster down, work out who is going to play with who and hope this doesn't fragment the team as a whole.

Also, how will Co-op tournaments work? Will GRNET field several squads in the same competition, if so how will the organisers stop Teammates sharing information once they have played their slot.

I Really hope the community is able to 'Mod' the number up from 4 or else I can really see this having a huge (and frankly undesirable) effect on the way we look at this franchise.

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Also, how will Co-op tournaments work? Will GRNET field several squads in the same competition, if so how will the organisers stop Teammates sharing information once they have played their slot.

Well, how can you ever guarantee that doesn't happen - even between teams? People in one team can be friends with people from other teams, you know. The world is not black and white. What I want to say is, if it's a problem you think originates from the four man team, it is more likely a problem that you just weren't aware of before.

Also, are co-op tournaments arranged with clans vs AI? You guys do know that there is no four member limit in team vs team games? It is only the single player campaign that has a four member limit, because it is balanced for four player teams.

If six or more were allowed that balance would be ruined - the game would become too easy. "Well then throw in more enemies, more enemies the more members there are in the team" you might say.

Well, a decision is made - never mind where in the chain of command - to write a single player campaign story line that features a four man team. Subsequently, the right amount of enemies that would present a fair challange for those four people are spread across the campaign's maps. Then, the level of graphic detail is tailored so that the engine can make that amount of characters - ghost team members as well as enemies - look as good as possible when all on screen. Succeeding in this - difficulty level and graphic level - makes quite a solid game, within the limits that were set - and solid things don't change so easily.

You can't just "throw in more enemies" to make the campaign more challenging for a 12 man squad - it's not that simple. These are just a few of the many problems I see in this issue.

Edited by maestro
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Also, how will Co-op tournaments work? Will GRNET field several squads in the same competition, if so how will the organisers stop Teammates sharing information once they have played their slot.

Well, how can you ever guarantee that doesn't happen - even between teams? People in one team can be friends with people from other teams, you know. The world is not black and white. What I want to say is, if it's a problem you think originates from the four man team, it is more likely a problem that you just weren't aware of before.

Also, are co-op tournaments arranged with clans vs AI? You guys do know that there is no four member limit in team vs team games? It is only the single player campaign that has a four member limit, because it is balanced for four player teams.

If six or more were allowed that balance would be ruined - the game would become too easy. "Well then throw in more enemies, more enemies the more members there are in the team" you might say.

Well, a decision is made - never mind where in the chain of command - to write a single player campaign story line that features a four man team. Subsequently, the right amount of enemies that would present a fair challange for those four people are spread across the campaign's maps. Then, the level of graphic detail is tailored so that the engine can make that amount of characters - ghost team members as well as enemies - look as good as possible when all on screen. Succeeding in this - difficulty level and graphic level - makes quite a solid game, within the limits that were set - and solid things don't change so easily.

You can't just "throw in more enemies" to make the campaign more challenging for a 12 man squad - it's not that simple. These are just a few of the many problems I see in this issue.

Of course the possibilities of people from different Teams sharing info is there but the very fact of it being a competition Between teams makes it more likely that info Won't be shared where as if a team enters more than one squad because it's restricted to 4 man teams then they are More likely to share info between themselves so that their team as a whole places well.

And tbh I think you may be a little confused, by definition Co-op is a group of players on one team playing agains the AI so this discussion really doesn't care how many players can play in adversarial mode only how restrictive limiting Co-op to 4 players might be. You have obviously never played GR in Co-op mode otherwise you would understand that the server and missions can be adjusted as to how many enemy AI there are, what difficulty they will play at and also the fact that there are a Huge number of missions written by the modding community specifically for Co-op mode. Your 'Fair Challenge' statement just doesn't hold water against what is fact from the GR evidence.

Edited by Dai-San
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I really wish we had some solid information on the topic of MP coop for GR:AW. Those of us that play coop GR almost exclusivly are quite eager to get some information. Personally, I have always found the need for more coordinated and organized approaches to difficult coop missions much more enjoyable and ineresting than the typical "see them before they see you" quality that I find dominates most TvT play.

@maestro, there are indeed coop tournaments. A quick visit to http://www.stealthrecon.net will reveal information about AlphaSquad's ongoing SR2005 tourney. We have 29 teams (representing some 350+ players) each making 4 insertions on difficult never before seen mission. The mission 1 scores will be posted this comming Monday, and teams will be free to discuss their perfromance/expereinces on Mission 1 at that point. I'd suggest you talk with a few of them, or better yet grab a copy of TS2 and the AlphaMod in order to stop by AlphaSquad's public coop server (visit http://www.alphasquad.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=277 for details) and see what it is like to play a well designed mission with a full team (we have many missions that allow coop play with up to 27 friendlies).

As for the eternal problem of "cheating" and the added complexity of controlling infomration flow between teams in a coop tournament. We go to great lenghths to guard against this problem. Mostly this is done by ensuring that we know who is actually playing on what team, and carefully watching and listening to game play.

I very much hope that Bo and his colleagues at Grin understand how much a large portion of the community values this "more mature" style of play, and that they will be able to provide us with both a game system and mission design/scripting tools to continue our effort to foster and extend the level of coop play in the GR fanchise.

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