Take a step back

[jsonedecker]

Well, it appears that some in this community are getting a bit "loud" about various GR:AW topics and I think that it might be time for everyone to just take a step back and think about things in a different light.

*Disclaimer* - I know just as much about GR:AW for all platforms as you all here do. Hell, WK knows more about it than I do. And I have never personally met anyone at GRIN, though I would like to.

With that said, I just think all this negativity and "it's this and it's that" is a bit much. Please remember that this is a game and a form of entertianment. Yes, a franchise that is dearly loved and has attracted a great and devoted fan base, but it is still just something that we purchase to entertain us. The same as a magazine, a movie, a car or anything else. Developers work very very hard to make these games and usually get very little recognition and definately don't get paid proportionate to the amount of work that goes into making these things. I know for a fact that most dev that come here are bound by company policy and generally just good corporate common sense as to what they can and cannot say and to how much interaction they can/should have. These are publicly traded companies and every word that is printed or said can and does affect a corporation.

Please give these guys credit for what they are doing and the talent that they have. I can personally guarantee you that there is NO ONE at Ubi, RSE or GRIN saying "hey, lets's ###### these PC consumers or even the GR community in general". It isn't happening. Ubi has decided to make some business decisions that some of you don't like. Heck, I don't like some of them, but you know what; You have 3 choices... 1. Enjoy what they do put out as something different than the original... 2. Don't buy the new product and show your "support" that way... and 3. keep playing the original or whatever version you like best.

How many times have you seen a movie series vere off from what you wanted to see it do? Star Wars anyone!!!!!!!!! But you know what, it doesn't really change your daily life does it? Did Lucas start out by saying " I am going to drive this series into the ground by trying to update it to what *I* think people of this day and age want to see"... doubt it. Same with Ubi. They are doing what *they* think is right. I hope they do listen to you guys and the constructive critism that is here as you all have a wealth of knowledge and valuable input... but at the end of the day, this group here is an extremely small sampling of the millions that buy thier products. I think Harntrox's thread was a very blunt and to the point comments, but it was delivered in a constructive way. I think Hatchetforce delivers very good insight into the world of gaming in general and isn't solely focused on GR. I think Serelan has the patience of a saint to actually tread this potential mine field to a Dev. I know.... I stepped on a few back in my days at RSE.

I am not pro/con Ubi or any other company for that matter. If someone puts out something that I like and want to buy I will purchase it. I f I don't I won't buy it. Personally, I have owned 2 Jeeps, but cannot stand the design of the new Commander. Do I boycott Jeep and continually bash the corporation and the engineers there? No, I just happily drive along in my current Liberty and keep an eye open for something else I like.

Jeez.....This is too long, but I have the luxury of being on both sides here and have the freedom to say things that others in my position(s) cannot. Please give these Devs the respect and common courtesies they deserve. It's a tough life, and one that, at times, feels like you are taking flak from all sides.

If things change too much for you then try something else out or do your best to wait for something that does capture your attention.... or even dust off an old game. Just don't take yourselves and all this stuff *too* seriously.

Thanks for reading -

John

[Dan]

good work mate, but its going to fall on deaf ears

[NYR_32]

Excellent post John. Folks need to take a step back and put this all into perspective, because its been nutso the past few weeks.

[Sup]

[smokin]

It makes so much sense, it's funny.

[cobaka]

nice post.

[RatoN]

Our lives don’t revolve around GR, but this is a discussion forum, this site is called GR.net, so we talk about GRAW amongst other things, what wrong with that?

I enjoy reading everybody’s post, whether pessimistic, fact, or speculation.

Fans will be fans, what you gonna do?

*blabla for three pages*

Now where’s the demo?

good work mate, but its going to fall on deaf ears

←

WHAT

[Zantar45]

Never a dull moment...

[=warcloud=]

I come hear to get away from the EA uk Battlefield 2 forum, Battlefield 2 for me is an awesome game i enjoy it very much, it's great fun. But oh man the ea bf 2 forum members (not all of them but most of em) just go on and on and on and on about things like sick of the stats, sick of the bomb runs, sick of the punish system, sick of this , sick of that.. c'mon ea/dice do something, do something now... bla de bla de bla.. moan moan moan, what a bunch of sissys. It's very depressing most of the time reading the threads and posts at Battlefield 2 EA uk forum. I think ea/dice did a excellent job on the game, i had one or two problems at first but i'm over that now. If they don't like bf2, then why the hell do they play it? I think they are sad and need to relax or get a life change or whatever. They demand a demo = not satisfied, they get a patch and another patch and another patch and free map = not satisfied, soon to be released expansion for bf2, lol.. it's unbeleivable.. now they want to boycott special forces expansion, bla de bla de bla... they are so funny in the head.

[Poita]

Sorry decker but your thread is rediculous.

I"m sick people talking down to posters here and telling them that GR is 'just a game so why care so much.'

In that case why did you write a massive post. You didn't even talk about the game. You put more effort and passion in to complaining about the forum of a game than the actual fans you are complaining about do about the actual game. So you are guilty of your own 'over reaction'.

The fact is anything in life can mean something to someone. I grew up reading Judge Dredd and was very jacked off when (DC i think) did a totally americanized childish version of it.

It can be something serious or something totally trivial but if people love it then that thing becomes an important part of their life so dont give us your crappola about how it's just a game and we are being unreasonable for being passionate about it. If you don't like reading passionate discussion about GRAW then get the hell off the forums and go somewhere where the discourse won't offend your sensitive nature.

No one is forcing the devs to work in the game industry and don't give us that about how they are all underpaid. They ain't doing charity work. They have top skills, thats why they were hired so they obviously chose the position that gave them the right combination of salary and job satisfaction. They shouldnt be in the bussines of creating entertainment if they can't bear to have their work critisized by the paying customers.

What the hell is a forum for if not passionate, engaging and stimulating discussion/debate? Do you want forums to be full of gushing fanboys? The notion that when we see a car, game, movie etc going in a direction that is not to our tase we should just drift away and hope to bump into something more appealing is rediculous. We have an emotional investment in this franchize and although we have no right to affect it's direction we certainly have a right to talk about it.

The devs are not made of glass, they can take a few harsh comments. In any case alsmot everyone knows that as with movies, the direction of games is often influenced heavily by the corps that own the dev houses. (the more dev houses sell out to big corps the more they just become drones) so most of our ire is directed at the suits.

Edited October 15, 2005 by Poita

[warhawk]

Take a step back? Already way ahead of you there but more to the point of picking option 2 in your post. Don't get me wrong, and this goes for the devs at GRIN and RSE as well, I know the Dev's have a thankless, and often underpaid, job. I am not now nor have I ever intended to come across as it was them that I was upset with. Plain and simply put I am put off and ###### off at UBI. What does that mean in the grand scheme of things? Not a damn thing. UBI will go on with or without my money. The loss of my funds isn't even going to make a scratch let alone even be noticeable to UBI. The only satisfaction I will get from my stance, and the only one I want, is my personal satisfaction and I will have it. My problems with UBI are not soley centered around GR2 or 3 for that matter. (As I said in another post) I'm hopefull that if, that could very well be quite literally a little word with a big meaning, UBI actually does publish GR:AW that it's what everyone wants that buys it. It won't be, in it's current state, what I want.

I can sum up my experience through both GR2 and now GR3 very simply. Input was given buy us fans here and it was ignored or deemed not a money maker by UBI. This is at least how it appears to me. Maybe that's wrong, maybe it's right. The only ones that do know for sure are the ones that made the decisions about what the PC version would be like. But that move was the final straw in a string of both recent moves and past ones that broke the perverbal camel's back.

Stout Hearts

|RE|Warhawk

[=warcloud=]

Buy the game play it, you don't like it... tough buy another one get on with it. they are not constructive posts. They just like to moan they are just a bunch of moaners. Like the geezer said relax man.

[Poita]

There is no written rule that says forum posts 'have to be' constructive. Sometimes people just need to vent. That may not further the debate but it can ad feeling. Some people like to communicate with logic and reason and others use passion. You guys don't get to dictate who should use what method. I like a reasoned debate but i dont mind if some just vent.

[Colin]

John nice post.

Ghost Recon.

MMMM ITS a game that has done so much for so many, passion is the key word, this game has created this forum and posters like Poita, Warcloud, etc, I admit they can be a pain in the you know where along with other posters, but its a public place to talk and give your opinion.

This forum is for all things Ghost Recon. The good,the bad,the obsessed,and the passionate.

We live and breath in a free world, well most of us, and this forum is a great example of freedom to express ourselves, in a public place. Thanks Rocky and the Staff.

John is making an extremly valid point, Ghost Recon is just a game, thats all no more and no less.

Negative feedback in a moaning way will produce negative feedback.

Negative feedback in a possitive way will give the poster a better responce and produce change.

These two statments are true and correct.

To put things into perspective:

IN THE TIME IT HAS TAKEN ME TO WRITE THIS POST 5 MINUTES.

600 PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN THE WORLD.

600 PEOPLE SO before you post please put things into perspective,try and be possitive even if you are in a negative frame of mind.

You will earn far more respect from the reader and help make change in what you seek.

Colin

[Colin]

OK people crossing the line will lead to bad things.

This post is that line.

For some of you who are hacked off with Large Company Policy, take a look at this.

It is OT but I thought it was relevent.

http://www.ghostrecon.net/forums/index.php...&st=0&p=307326&

[Rocky]

There is no written rule that says forum posts 'have to be' constructive.

←

Probably a good job too, or else there'd be a lot of people with warnings slapped on their accounts.

The problem is Poita the noise to signal ratio recently has come to the point where this fan (note that word) forum is more negative than positive. This is a forum for Ghost Recon fans. Obviously it would be a bit bland if we all got along and sang songs around the campfire every weekend, but when the negativity reaches the proportions that it has now, where members are bickering in every second post, it takes a post like JS's to make peole take a step back, take a breath and hopefully gain some perspective. Big sentence but hopefully you get the point.

[calius]

Well I hate you all you all are nasty people, but I on the other hand are great .... what sort of name is "Rocky" anyways!!?

NOTE: ... thats what I would be saying if I wasnt a fan.

Maybe they should rename the game :

GR:AW - "Ghost Recon - Advanced Wingers"

Good intial post I must say .. shame about the other ones after it though ..

[EasyCo]

Good post. It was probably hard to write, and I'm sure you bit your tongue a few times. Thank you for this post. It might fall on some deaf ears, but I'm sure many of us listened.

I’m sure everyone working on these projects is talented. I just wanted to say thank you to all of them for putting up with so much crap on these forums. I also want to add that many of us have produced “constructive criticism†about the direction of the new game. This is only because of the love for the traditional game.

Obviously, everyone here cares about the GR series. The GR1 game was/is such an amazing product. This one game has brought together an entire community of people. Rocky is gracious enough to share this forum to help show how much this one game has brought to many people. We should accept the fact that there will never be a game like GR again, and just enjoy the company/fun this game has brought us.

[WhiteKnight77]

I find it extrememly funny that one of the designers of the original GR had to tell people to chill out. He has good points. Yes, this is a GR forum and we do get caught up with it, but sometimes it does go overboard.

Frustrations are running high right now.

=warcloud=, I would say the average age of this forum is 35. If you can find a forum with a higher average age and maturity level, you are more than welcome to if you so desire. As Rocky noted, you are the first to ever say otherwise.

[NightCrawler]

Thanks John!

I don't post much in this part of the forums because the passion level is just a bit to high for some. Sometimes people have to remember that it's people on the other end reading, and feelings sometimes get hurt. I prefer to leave things unsaid rather then hurt others and I hope they feel the same when responding to me.

[Cobblers]

Must admit, before I went on my holidays (about 3 weeks ago) there was posts with members moaning, but since I've come back I've not found many posts to add to as it's just the same old thing, but this time on a larger scale than before. And it's getting pretty tiresome.

@ =warcloud= - I challenge you to find a better forum that gr.net's. If you do manage to find one, let me know, I'd love to be a member. Fact with life today, is that's it's the minority that spoil things for people.

But a refreshing post. And many members on this board should take note!! (You know who you are)

Thing is, with GRAW we're being kept in the know and information is coming out all the while, so where's the reason for the moaning? It's not like with GR2 where we had no information and where kept in the dark, For me, the tunnel called GRAW is very bright and we're heading there.

Just have more patience. I'd rather have a delayed game than one that needs regular patching to get it right.

[pz3]

I got OE to work on, im done with GR untill I see a demo. If i like it ill get it, if i dont i wont. easy as cuttting cake.

[PoonTaco]

Nice post John!

It should be a sticky on top of all these pages.

p.s. back to work, we need the SS content pronto!

[jsonedecker]

Guys,

I am not going to be baited into yet another "debate" or "spirited discussion" with some of you. I'm not out looking for praise ot just the positive comments..... I'm just trying to bring some sense around here as I really like frequenting this place. I find myself spending about 90% of my time in the bottom forums that have nothing to do with GR simply because every thread devolves into the negative posting and general animosity toward the devs and companies involved.

So, I would like to clarify a few things.......................

Our lives don’t revolve around GR, but this is a discussion forum, this site is called GR.net, so we talk about GRAW amongst other things, what wrong with that?

Nothing, I just think wasting time wadeing through rehashes of bashing negative talk just to be negative and talking before facts are known is getting tiresome.

Sorry decker but your thread is rediculous.

I"m sick people talking down to posters here and telling them that GR is 'just a game so why care so much.'

I am not talking down to anyone. I have the utmost respect for people here and thier general majurity level...... And I expcet the same in return. Some here need to get that in check.

In that case why did you write a massive post. You didn't even talk about the game. You put more effort and passion in to complaining about the forum of a game than the actual fans you are complaining about do about the actual game. So you are guilty of your own 'over reaction'.

I didn't talk about the game because I wan't making a point about the actual game.... just the way some folks around here are presenting thier thoughts and frustrations.

If you don't like reading passionate discussion about GRAW then get the hell off the forums and go somewhere where the discourse won't offend your sensitive nature.

  No one is forcing the devs to work in the game industry and don't give us that about how they are all underpaid. They ain't doing charity work. They have top skills, thats why they were hired so they obviously chose the position that gave them the right combination of salary and job satisfaction. They shouldnt be in the bussines of creating entertainment if they can't bear to have their work critisized by the paying customers.

Please re-read what I wrote. I never said devs are underpaid. What I said was "Developers work very very hard to make these games and usually get very little recognition and definately don't get paid proportionate to the amount of work that goes into making these things". That means that they do A LOT more than for thier products above and beyond what their salary and job descriptions dictate. I see PSekula and Serellan in here at some very late hours. I personally spent countless hours over the years helping out the mod community here. Again, above and beyond the paycheck. So, please understand the comments before commenting on them.

Do you want forums to be full of gushing fanboys?

Nope. Not at all.

The notion that when we see a car, game, movie etc going in a direction that is not to our tase we should just drift away and hope to bump into something more appealing is rediculous. We have an emotional investment in this franchize and although we have no right to affect  it's direction we certainly have a right to talk about it.

An emotional investment is fine, but do so with respect and control.

The devs are not made of glass, they can take a few harsh comments.

You are right, but that is not what I was insinuating anyway. Believe me..... if you cannot take critisism you will not last long in this business. But there is a difference between critisism and some of the stuff that goes on around here. Again, respect is the word of the day.... I'll give it to you, but I expect it back. Disagree all you want, but do it respectfully and constructively.

In any case alsmot everyone knows that as with movies, the direction of games is often influenced heavily by the corps that own the dev houses. (the more dev houses sell out to big corps the more they just become drones) so most of our ire is directed at the suits.

Well that's Capitolism. Can't argue with that, but guess what.... the suits have never and never will come here to "just another internet forum". No offense Rocky

If you want to get the suites ear write them a letter, email or try a phone call. It works.

Warhawks post #11 was a good example of expressing his thoughts constructively BTW.

There is no written rule that says forum posts 'have to be' constructive.

Correct, but constructive is not just positive, but is also negative. It can be both.

Poita also said.......

Sometimes people just need to vent. That may not further the debate but it can ad feeling. Some people like to communicate with logic and reason and others use passion. You guys don't get to dictate who should use what method. I like a reasoned debate but i dont mind if some just vent.

Again, fine in general, but for some of you here that is all you do in the last month or so. As Rocky put it, the signal to noise ratio is titled the wrong way.

Good post Colin (#14) Sorry, this thing is long already so no quote.

Prozac360 said .........

I got OE to work on, im done with GR untill I see a demo. If i like it ill get it, if i dont i wont. easy as cuttting cake.

Exactly.

Anyway, looks like it was a good day for fishing afterall. I took the bait.... fish on!!!!!

-John

Edited because some quots were screwy

Edited October 15, 2005 by jsonedecker

[KRP 56]

Heck, I don't like some of them, but you know what; You have 3 choices... 1. Enjoy what they do put out as something different than the original... 2. Don't buy the new product and show your "support" that way... and 3. keep playing the original or whatever version you like best.

←

You can't get any better than the original as it's still as fun today as it was when I first bought it. I doubt GRAW will be better than the original but we'll see soon enough then we can protest by not buying it if it's not up to par. Hey John. Any chance of getting an inside look at Blackfoot Studios?