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Petition for replays [or demo's]


Ben
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I can't understand GRIN doesn't want or can't include replays, one of the most important things in a game. So that's why this petition - please sign it :)

http://www.petitiononline.com/gr3rpf/petition.html

To:  GRIN

Why do we need replays?

- AntiCheat is never waterproof

- AntiCheat is never up-to-date

- AntiCheat won't ban for abusing mapbugs or different kinds of taking unfair advantage

- We use replays for 4 (?) years now as ONLY tool to catch cheaters

- Without replays we can't show our 1v4 clutches or awesome shots (so, No fragmovies) :)

So because it would use 'ungodly amounts of data' to save a replay [caused by the physics in the game]. Please give us more information about this? Are we talking mb's or gb's? How does this work in Multiplayer then? Is it something Client-sided? Can't we turn it off then? etc...

Replayability is very important for us, for some people this means the constant flow of new mods created by the modders - like new missions, maps, weapons or soundfiles. But for me and i think most of the competitive 'scene' it's the Multiplayer that keeps us playing for years and also buying the expansionpacks over the years.

Personally i would really like to have an option to check a replay if i think something was fishy instead of trusting a AC-Program; because they get bypassed and they are not always up-to-date and usually they don't detect private hacks.

Maybe you can implement clientsided replays (usually called 'demos') like most games have now, atleast we have something then. Also - like i mentioned above - replays were used to check people abusing bugs in the game, and to ban them (temporarily) from the server, since i haven't played a game yet that wasn't bugged or had things that could be abused i think this is another reason to have replays/demos. Imagine matches, there will be conflicts because team1 claims he glitched and team2 says he didn't. Answer would be the replays...

Bo & Co [GRIN], please reconsider or add replays with a patch after the release. Replays are besides good gameplay and good feeling the most important thing in a game (imo).

If you decide to sign it then fill in your name/nickname with a comment (if you like) and then you have to "Preview" before "Signing". It's a 2-step procedure to sign it.

Thanks again,

- Ben

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What about replays?

Due to the way the game is made we will not have replays. Remember, with the use of physics in game, we will not be able to. We would have to save ungodly amounts of data to recreate a replay, even if it is not recorded as a completely rendered scene.

This is already a done deal.

Sorry Ben.

Colin

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Well, i hope not :)

And Colin i believe RSE added replays in GR1 at the last minute.. So, who knows.. :)

I really hope they reconsider what they are doing, no replays... Man, that was be so sad and imagine the paranoia (spelling?). I am talking about the real competition in Ghost Recon, the ladders, leagues and tournaments. I don't think the "COOP Community" cares a lot about the replays.

And even if they can't add replays then (like i said in the text of my petition) maybe they can add Client-Sided demos - for matches. So if you're playing 6on6 and you suspect one of the players you can ask his demo (replay of 1 player's view only) and check that... Better then nothing.

A demo function should be possible, if not.. Then i guess you can't even spectate other players?

Please vote anyway Colin, like i said.. Who knows? The game is not out yet :thumbsup:

Edited by Ben
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Nothing is impossible ;) And they already said it was possible but the replays would be to big (but they don't mention a size..).

And again, i also mentioned something about Client-sided replays Giweda. Basicly it's a file from all the data you receive from the server while playing on 'a' server (online and offline). Atleast that's my impression when i watch demos from other games, it's a replay of 1 view of what the server "saw" and calculated & processed etc etc

My problem is...

If someone bypasses the AC (something that WILL happen) then this person can do whatever he wants, there are no replays.. I mean, if the AC doesn't detect him cheating.. There is nothing else that can catch him. So how can you organize tournaments with small prizes for example? You can't.

And GR1 lasted something like 4 years? I doubt GRIN still supports the game after all those years, so then you're left with a outdated AntiCheat?

IMHO we must have replays or demos.

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Well Colin the thing is the difference between the random COOP-players and the good, skilled players in the Competitive GR community.

COOP wants a as good as possible game, nice visuals and stuff. good missions etc

We wants a flawless game with good AC and replays/demos for serious matches.

Btw, any of u that actually have been talking to any members of GRIN?

I actually have been talking to Bo (wich, I think, is one of the leaders in this project).

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Hmmm, interesting way you compare the different kinds of players in GR. :P

I personally could care less about the replays. Id say stick it in if you can, but if anything needs to be sacrificed, this would be it.

BTW, if you actually talked to Bo, wouldnt you know what he does? :rofl: Anyway, just ask him directly to stick the replays in. :thumbsup:

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Hmmm, interesting way you compare the different kinds of players in GR.  :P

I agree there are 2 types of GR players.

COOP Community, mainly GhostRecon.net and AlphaSquad's COOP Tournaments comes in mind, and BAD's tourney's too :)

And then the people from IGS, TAGaming, TCZ and Clanbase (and other ladders/leagues). We don't really have 1 communitysite, so i guess it's harder for GRIN to get a good idea what we want. And that's replays :)

Maybe there's a 3rd group of GR players, the pubbers that play a game on UBI or ASE so once in a while not caring about new total conversion packs or COOP tourney or ladders/leagues etc.. They only check for new patches once in a while.

I'm not buying this game for the great mods that will come out, or the new missions. But purely for the Multiplayer and if there are no replays/demos .. well, i'm not so sure if i'm going to buy it. Maybe i will.. But if the AC fails (i doubt it will be waterproof) then i seriously doubt i will buy the next expansionpack(s).

GR1 was great, had replays although a bit crappy.. It keept the game alive and many people bought the 2 expansionpacks that came out over the years..

I don't think it's that weird i think this way, so maybe it's not so bad to include replays if you look 2-3 years ahead :huh:

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Ok I hear what you guys are saying, and yes it would be nice to have replays.

How ever replay in gr1 is a few kb, but we have moved on so far in the last 5 years.

The game Engine and the Physics make it next to impossible to save game play.

We are talking 100s of MB just for one game and may be even more.

I realy dont want to dampen your enthusiasm but it would be nearly impossible to do.

To get the game you want some sacrifices have had to be made and Im afraid this is going to be one of them.

I agree with you on the cheating aspect, replays play a big part in the old Ghost Recon seeing what happened.

But this game is a different Animal altogether, cheating I suspect will be much harder to do in the first place.

We have been told Grin/Ubi will make it hard for cheaters in the game, this information we have not got yet, IE how it will be done for sure.

We will just have to waite and see.

Replays yes I would love to see them just to see how good the game looks after playing a match.

Like I said Sacrifices, come at a cost.

Colin

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If Replays are huge then demos have an acceptable size i think

Imagine 12 players... Lets say the replay would be 500 mb then.

1 player's view (a demo; client-sided replay) would be around the 40 mb

40 mb.. compared to Counter Strike's 75 mb demos for 1 map, usually it's a 2map match so 150 mb total...

Even Doom 3 had demos! They were 1 gb in size sometimes, BUT the devs fixed it.. I mean.. It's possible..

The replays in CS (HLTV - every view of every player) are around 40-50 mb per map, this is still acceptable for matches or something.. if it was that size in GR3 as well

but.. it's hard to say anything if we don't have any information about the size of replays :shifty:

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I thought this would add to this post as it is a good one to bring up.

By RWG_Jackal

I would like replays, but if the game is solid and GR 1 true to form I can overlook the lack.

I dont want to see PB screwing up this game with lag and bogus detections, while the real hackers play freely without detection.

No Replays or PB, then how do we play cheat free you ask?

Simple.

Find a WDA, CDN, BSR, AoD, RWG, or any other well known clan server and play there. All these teams welcome both the new and advnced players, treat people with respect, and typically low ping, well ran servers. All you need to play in them is a bit of respect and willing to have fun.

The GR community is so tight I propose we start a "Respected Server" list were we help promote each others clan server on our webpages. We can share Fraps videos and SS's of cheaters and even try and keep a up to date Global ban list.

Any thoughts??

I thought this was very good.

Jackal has a good head on his shoulders and speaks good common sence.

Some of the replys are very informative.

The link for this post is UBI.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc...13/m/8031018553

I hope you dont mind Ben.

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I thought this would add to this post as it is a good one to bring up.

By RWG_Jackal 

I would like replays, but if the game is solid and GR 1 true to form I can overlook the lack.

I dont want to see PB screwing up this game with lag and bogus detections, while the real hackers play freely without detection.

No Replays or PB, then how do we play cheat free you ask?

Simple.

Find a WDA, CDN, BSR, AoD, RWG, or any other well known clan server and play there. All these teams welcome both the new and advnced players, treat people with respect, and typically low ping, well ran servers. All you need to play in them is a bit of respect and willing to have fun.

The GR community is so tight I propose we start a "Respected Server" list were we help promote each others clan server on our webpages. We can share Fraps videos and SS's of cheaters and even try and keep a up to date Global ban list.

Any thoughts??

I thought this was very good.

Jackal has a good head on his shoulders and speaks good common sence.

Some of the replys are very informative.

The link for this post is UBI.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc...13/m/8031018553

I hope you dont mind Ben.

The "respected clan's" servers are like that because they check replays of fishy people and ban the cheaters - then they share the info so that person can't play on one of those servers anymore.

Without replays you can spectate possible cheaters whole day long, but if you can't watch a replay with wallhack for example.. You can't be 100% sure if a person is cheating or not. Things like aimbot are pretty obvious ofcourse, but small things like namescheat/wallhack aren't always that clear.

FRAPS videos or Screenshots don't proof anything at all, you can alter them slightly you know... And you can't see if someone is folllowing a player through the wall with a fraps video (unless the player that is "frapsing" runs a wallhack as well..

Or maybe someone gets kicked from the server and he visits that clans forum to appeal,, And normally he would say "please check the replay and you see nothing was wrong".. But that isn't possible in GR:AW anymore...

I understand what he is saying, but it simply won't work with fraps'd avi's and screenshots, and the persons banning people can make mistake too, that's why there are replays so people can make up their own opinion..

btw, a "Respected Server list" won't help us in ladder/league/tournament matches you know.... especially if there is fame or prizes to win heh :)

And Colin i don't mind that you posted that quote .. if you sign the petition :thumbsup: lol j/k :ph34r:

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Well in battlefield2 we have replays/demos whatever u like to call them. And yeah the game supports 32 vs 32 player matches with all kinds of vehicles. And u say its impossible to make replay feature for GRAW?...

Though there is no 1st person view, but it has 3rd freeview and freecam. Also it has a slowdown and fastforward features like in GR1 replays. U can zoom in and out. Pause the replay. restart the replay by pressing Q and select restart. Its soo simple. U can switch between players.

In matches the demo sizes are around 1mb - 8mb. Depends how fast the round is over.

But yeah no demos and the ladder/tournament side of the game wont live long. Alot of paranoia, alot of bull #### accusations and i wont stay around for that kind of #### (censor).

I dont know about the coop tournaments, but hey u guys play against bots, you know they cant cheat. Human vs Human is little bit different. Some guy kills u and u problably wonder how did he do that? He found u hiding behind a rock. How did he know? He kills the whole team and u wonder how did he do that? U wonder if he is really so good?

Mod - Please don't bypass the swear filter.

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My argument for replays is this ... When GR was first published. 20 gb was a large hard drive and the average player probably had 10 to 15. All those same player now have hard drives that are anywhere between 80 and 200 gb, which is more than enough space to store a dozen or more replays for a match. Or to turn replays on if you wanna grab one or two at random if you suspect a particular player.

I'll say i'd love to have em but will live without them ...

And Colin. I like that "community" and "respected server" idea as well ... I'm gonna be following that concept closely. I'd like to see wolfgaming.net get back into the GR scene a bit more solidly. We're more or less a bit nomadic at the moment. I expect to see a resurgence with the release of GRAW and another dedicated server.

Oh how I miss the 6 to 8 hour sessions of Command & Conquer and i'm beggin for that game type to be the first server side mod to be released .... BF2 is fun but it doesn't have the same intensity that keeps you glued to your chair in front of a monitor till your eyes bleed.

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Lizard,

You think you can keep all cheaters out with that "community" and "respected server" idea" ?

Because, that's the whole point of this topic and the petition :)

I posted a positive argument for including replays. I never stated that the community idea was perfect, I just said that it was a good idea and that i was going to follow it's evolution.

and by the way ... I'm off to sign your petetion.

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Ok - thank you :D

I like that Community/Server idea, and i know it can work. Sort of a gentlemen's rule to keep it clean and have respect for eachother. But this only works if everyone knows eachother and if you're playing on TeamSpeak with eachother regulary

But there are always people that "just want to try and see what that exe does .." Ah.. you know the rest :)

The respected and private servers aren't really the problem heh :)

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Who ever started this petition be advised; as reported earlier in other threads, Replays are not possible due to requirements of the physics engine having to pump physics into the replay files, making them unwieldy at best. I like the idea of replays, but I don't think this is going to happen mate.

I'd rather sacrifice replays for pure and total gaming fun and pleasure.

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I'd rather sacrifice replays for pure and total gaming fun and pleasure.

I'd rather sacrifice psysics for pure and total gaming fun and pleasure.

I don't care about the graphics or how neat a bridge collapses or how a soldier falls down a clif after shooting him etc etc...

All useless stuff.. doesn't add alot to the gameplay..

As "Online GR gamer" i think they should add atleast demos, demos are the exact same thing as what you for example see when spectating me, you receive data from the server from what i am doing, where i am aiming etc.. A demo is basicly (not an expert in this) a file that saves all that data what you receive from the server. I think your Ghost Recon reads all these commands and renders them... ok.. something like that :P

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I respect what you think. I think a good thing about the physics, it brings new realism to the fold of GR. in GR, some guys can hide forever behind objects otherwise easy to destroy in the real world and never die. But think, you have a bad guy who hides behind a wall and you hit it woth rockets or grenades and it collapses on him. that would be cool.

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