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Thoughts on Raven Shield


jsonedecker
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Hey everyone,

First off, I know this is the GR forums so that is why I am posting this in the Off Topic section.

I am interested in why those that didn't care for Raven Shield didn't like it. Was it a particular feature that was added/removed, was the "speed" different... that kind of thing. I also know that some didn't like the use of the Unreal engine. I am also curious to hear why it wasn't liked. Was there just a pre-concieved notion about the Unreal engine or were there actual tangible things about it that made it "inferior" to the previous RSE created ones.

This is not intended to be a flame fest or even a place to "######" about stuff. I am merely curious to hear why, at least it appears so, that Rvs was less "accepted" by gamers than Rainbow Six or Rogue Spear.

-John

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1. Speed- main factor in my uninstall

2. Character movement and how they looked moving

3. Gun Settings- was strange, IMO the pistols were better then the rifles :blink:

My main complaint was speed= run and gun game.

Oh i forgot another thing, i HATED the lean+run thing. GR had the best lean, the way the character stopped and shifted his body instead of lean half his body over.

Edited by GRT
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Some of the things I didn't like about RvS and this was a big thing for me, no direct IP support for hosting a game. While it isn't a deal killer, it goes a long way to making the game more accessable game wise to me. Second, no between round chat. It was set up as an arcade style game where rounds went one right after another. Kind of hard to plan a take down when there is no chat and the round launches seconds after the previous one started.

First person weapon views turned me off too. While trying the demo (I joined other servers as mine could not be joined for some du-massed reason), the servers I joined all forced me to use that unrealistic view on me. While I know that it is unrealistic for having just a ret, when actually shooting a real weapon, you do not see that much of the weapon anyway. Your eyes are so close to the rear sight to begin with that it pretty much fills your view. I can't shoot with both eyes open and have to close one so I see maybe a 2-3 inch area when using iron sights (as most people would). When patrolling, the weapon can't be seen as it is held close to the chest, barrel down.

The unreal engine didn't "feel" right. Environments seemed "darker" than earlier iterations. I also think that the added blur during the death animation was overkill, I wanted to toss my cookies.

I think you will find that you have opened a can of worms John. I will keep an eye on this so it does help you understand why it wasn't a good game and yet keep it from becoming a flame fest.

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I think you will find that you have opened a can of worms John. I will keep an eye on this so it does help you understand why it wasn't a good game and yet keep it from becoming a flame fest.

Yeah, I most definately do not want this to turn into anything other than a "fact finding" mission. I am only interested in trying to define how the R6 series has evolved. The good, the bad and the ugly.

-John

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John knows we also run Aggression, but I can see why he preferred to ask here. With the amount of traffic here, he could get the answers he seeks better.

Yes. No offense to the Aggression site, but it appears to me that there is a much larger volume of traffic here. I was also trying to be careful to not spur an open debate either and I guess I thought the conversation might be a bit more subdued over here. ;)

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The biggest turn offs of raven shield were definitly the.

-Scoped while zoomed allows you to run and gun

-Running while shooting allowed for a lot of spray and pray tactics

-Cmags 100+ bullets for every one was stupid one man could run into a room spray and pray and take out just about everyone if not all.

-Unreal engine was the cheapest one for puchase and had many little flaws.

-Other then that i thought it was a decent game and was pretty fun to play. Gun balacing was unrealistic but still a joy to play.

Edited by Prozac360
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My biggest gripe about RVS was the tango voices (or should I say voice as it usually sounded like the same person) and corn ball one liners Police, I'm getting out of here, What was that etc.. Would have been a lot more nerve racking with proper language for the area where mission was taking place and tangos that sounded like they mean business. Overall good game for me because it has different SP modes and that's all I play.

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I will not list anything that has been noted, I do have 2 things to add:

1) A new patch every other week, while I appreciated them trying to make things better It was a pain trying to keep up.

2) In single player you had a great briefing complete with the map for planning, then you go to MP and nothing. If you had not played the map you had no idea what to expect and no way to plan with your team mates. I understand why they could not give you the fully moveable map and what not, but a simple sketch map would not have killed them.

Edited by Dodger
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WK, direct IP is supported for multiplayer, when you said that I had to check myself even though most of the games I've played in RVS have been direct IP.

Some of the biggest pains for me were

1, CD Key servers being a pain to connect to and totally trashing a planned nights gaming

2, Not being able to connect and being disconnected from a mates game even though everyone else can see, join and play it perfectly

3, Ridiculous AI that can shoot you through a keyhole with their backs to you just as you start to open a door

I think thats about it for me but I'll think on it awhile

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Thank you for asking. This comes from someone who thought Rouge Spear was the best game of the series.

Worst bits of RvS:

-no mod support

-Guns just didn't feel right. The guns in RS were more fun IMO, (if less realistic?)

-First Person Weap view is cool, but not done right in RvS. The gun took up too much screen.

-Friendly AI would at times be a little frantic/spazy/glitchy when following you. They needed to seem more calm and smoother.

-run and zoom was terrible online.

:)

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I have a couple things to note here.

Let me first add that I have been playing The Rainbow Six Series since the Demo for R6 came out. During that time, I played the R6 and RS series so much that I went through three licensed copies of each game. I have them all. I still play them in fact. Not so much R6 and Eagle Watch anymore, but the Rogue Spear games I do, and Ravenshield.

I loved the game, except for one really major problem, that in my opinion really hindered the RvS community and popularity of the game. That was that Ubi didn't rework the Unreal 3 engine enough that multi-player was viable for everyone. It was piteously slow, and if you had dialup, more often than not, you were screwed, because your framerates and lag were so bad, you didn't have a prayer of staying alive. Once a bunch of us went through the *.ini files and modded the network code, it was fully playable, and a blast.

With a good TacSim, great MP is a NECESSITY. If you can't play with a team of your friends or your clan, you lose interest in the game, and thus, no one mods for it. Why would they? So they can play with an AI that leaves alot to be desired?

I believe truly that had a couple of things been addressed with RvS, that it would be as popular now and for as long as Ghost Recon was.

Those things are:

-The net code

-Moddability

-Direct IP connect without having to go through an Ubi server which sacked performance

-And telling people that they HAD to buy Athena Sword or they couldn't DL patches anymore, was totally wrong, and a bit like extortiion. We paid 50 bucks for a good game, and we should have gotten one. That they didn't provide that and had to patch it is NOT the consumers fault, nor should we pay to have it fixed.(As you can tell, I don't like Ubi at all, and when I found out that they even acquired the Myst series, my heart sunk.)

Someone mentioned above that the lack of a comprehensive MP briefing turned him off of the game.

To me, there shouldn't be a comprehensive MP briefing. If you want realistic, and you are playing MP, the whole idea is that you and your team figure out how to accomplish the objective. Take a real life SWAT team. Do you think they get time or a full, comprehensive briefing when they get called out on a mission? No.

They figure it out on-site. The R6 series is based on what we can call here a highly specialized SWAT team, although they are really more than that.To me, the lack of a comprehensive briefing made the game that much more enjoyable. Now for SP having to play with a linear, very "you draw a line and the AI will go there" AI, a comprehensive briefing is essential so that you can tell all of the teams what to do because it is necessary. NOT for MP.

As for time between rounds, that was all able to be set in the MP options and server setup.

The C-Mags for some of the rifles bothered me also. Those should only be for support roles. Realisticly, 100 rounds makes the gun heavy and more unwieldy, hampering the reaction time needed in CQB.

To me, the unreal engine was a bad choice. IMO, they would have been better off using the original RS or GR engine, and tweaking it. That engine, it seems to me(but I'm not a modder, yet) had a great deal of unrealized potential. And while I realize that dev's don't have time to hit every tweak the engine has to offer, it could have been so much better. And I played GR and only GR and the R6 sseries for nearly 7 years, or is it 8? They are the only games I played. I never even bought any new games until this year, when GR ran out of gas for me.

The unreal engine had too much rag doll effect, and it was a system hog, big time. Not everyone has a top of the line PC, and alot of devs forget that when making a title.

But all in all, RvS is a great game and alot of fun, if you can find enough people to play it. I just got the Iron Wrath Expansion from FilePlanet, and I'm going to give it a whirl. I also hope to have the official expansion, Athena's Sword soon.

But to me, for realism, MP, and replayability, the R6/RS and GR series are the best, and as far as I'm concerned, the are the standard by which other TacSims should be made, and either equalled or surpassed.

I hear OFP was good, but I was so busy playing the R6/RS and GR that I hadn't any interest in anything else at the time, and it passed me by.

All these other games like BF2 and CS(although fun for what it is), can't touch what Redstorm did back in the day, and a great deal of that is due to you, John.

The two I mention aren't big on realism at all, and to me, aren't even TacSims. They are fun, but unrealistic, and too run and gun to suit me. For a serious TacSim fan and COOP or TvT player like myself, there are still only 2 benchmarks, and I keep returning to them: R6/RS and GR(although not as often now. Will probably pickup again though, knowing me).

It was a very sad day when Ubi snatched RedStorm up. A sad day indeed.

Well, those are my thoughts on RvS, and I still play the game today.

I might add that I just got First To Fight, and while it has it's own problems, that is one of the most realistic, squad based TacSims I have ever played. With some tweaking and a few mods, it could be a replacement for GR. JMO. Although I do believe it should have a 6 man squad, not 4.

Edited by =UE=Phantom
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Weird, I never saw a button that said Host Game or similar. I had to go to the Ubi server to even try and get a game started. I also saw no place to enter an IP so I could join someones game.

Right up at the top of the MP screen, after you log into Ubi. In the center is connect to IP, and on the right of that, I believe, is the create game button.

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I didn't play it online, but here were my problems:

- Limited weapon ballistics. It didn't seem to have very well modeled penetration, ricochet, or anything else.

- SP maps were often somewhat linier.

- The lack of reactions from enemies when injured. This always bothers me when it isn't done. If there's not some kind of a stagger, at least as much as GR has, then I'm usually unhappy with it.

- The AI wasn't mobile enough. I'd have liked to see them move around a bit more than their basic patrols, especially in combat.

- I wasn't awfully fond of the weapon balance/damage system. It just seemed... Off.

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It wasn't really to be a matchmaker service, bro. They did it to keep tabs on legitimacy. That is all. That's also why they didn't care if their servers were hosing people, and also why we couldn't get tech support from them.

And those things I didn't mention, because they really had nothing to do with the game, and ALL to do with Ubi.

I wanted to leave Ubi out as much as possible to keep this from becoming a Flame Ubi thread.

I also have to agree with the Weapon's Damage System thing mentioned. You hit a guy with a .308 out of any rifle, just about anywhere on his body, and he will hit the floor and stay there. And while it may not be a kill every time, it will end his fight.

And I didn't like the machine pistols being a secondary weapons' choice. Very unrealistic, and impractical.

But the damage model/weapons balance was way off.

But I still love the game.

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I also have to agree with the Weapon's Damage System thing mentioned.  You hit a guy with a .308 out of any rifle, just about anywhere on his body, and he will hit the floor and stay there.  And while it may not be a kill every time, it will end his fight.

As I was saying, putting in some kind of a reaction to being shot (like GR) would really fix that. Sure, maybe a shot wouldn't drop someone when it should, but at least you wouldn't put a round in someone's torso and have them (instantly) shoot you back.

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One of the things that I missed from the R6 series in RvS was the plot immersion. Rvs just seemed to be rescue a hostage, kill all the bad guys ad nauseum.

The R6 series had more of a story behind them than RvS and Athena sword, and that really killed it for me. The previous games had also been good stories, not literary award winners to be sure, but they had me hooked that I always wanted to see what was next, rather than the "Heads it's hostage rescue, Tails I have to neutralise the tangos" storyline that RvS was.

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RVS was fun, for me, I just got really hacked off with the ridiculous patch fiasco. I started to write a report on that with details on all the patches, when they were released, what they ruined etc etc, but I got an extreme headache about a third of the way through and gave up.

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There is nothing wrong with making sure a game is legitimate, do that when first installing the game then forget about it. Don't require it everytime you play. If you could launch an RvS server by going straight from the main splash screen to the MP screen and hit one button saying join game with only typing in the IP, wouldn't you enjoy that much better. What about hosting, just hit Create Game. Ubi didn't allow for that without logging onto the matchmaker service the way you tell it. Having to do that first before creating your game is not how some people want to play and that is the drawback of it.

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