Real deal : How missions should have been

[Lancer]

Some "co-op" mission scripters should read this thread

Chavez' 'Grozny' mission still ranks highly as a good example of how a believable mission should look. Sneak in, do the deed, sneak out, without alerting the locals.

[TestTubeDummy]

HI,

for my opinion its the Daytime of operations ist not unrealistic.... for the Game, it will be monotone to operate only at nighttime.

the Missionplay of the "Brothers in Arms" Mod is a very nice one for me...

As said - if You make a Game like real life, you'd have to look more around than to walk or fight, or sneak for hours to go 50 meters.

On the other hand the unrealistic side is, the reaction of the enemy to you.

One Shoot (not SD) at night would pull all enemy forces to your location..., not only the enemy in range of 30 to 50 Meters

At night, when You use night Vision and the enemy does not, why do they locate you over a distance from about 70 meters, while you move slowly through some bushes?

If you attack an enemy at night with an SD Sniper Rifle over a wide distance, how can the enemy know your posision after only one or two shoots?

The same for daymaps with SD Rifle shoot over the half map...

after one shoot the enemy reacts with shooting very exactly your posision.

and AI always looking straight to the enemyposition (thorugh walls ?)

they don't secure the area right and left from a wall...

thats the point of unrealism in my eyes

but there is no way to make there points better, isn't it?

bye

TTD

[Sup]

HI,

for my opinion its the Daytime of operations ist not unrealistic.... for the Game, it will be monotone to operate only at nighttime.

the Missionplay of the "Brothers in Arms" Mod is a very nice one for me...

As said - if You make a Game like real life, you'd have to look more around than to walk or fight, or sneak for hours to go 50 meters.

On the other hand the unrealistic side is, the reaction of the enemy to you.

One Shoot (not SD) at night would pull all enemy forces to your location..., not only the enemy in range of 30 to 50 Meters

At night, when You use night Vision and the enemy does not, why do they locate you over a distance from about 70 meters, while you move slowly through some bushes?

If you attack an enemy at night with an SD Sniper Rifle over a wide distance, how can the enemy know your posision after only one or two shoots?

The same for daymaps with SD Rifle shoot over the half map...

after one shoot the enemy reacts with shooting very exactly your posision.

and AI always looking straight to the enemyposition (thorugh walls ?)

they don't secure the area right and left from a wall...

thats the point of unrealism in my eyes

but there is no way to make there points better, isn't it?

bye

TTD

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Most of those are fixed in the 'Enemy/general realism mod'.

[4ceReconSniper]

At least to me word reconnaissance (Recon) mean non-violent mission, unless its Force Recon, so its bit silly to go around guns blazing and using term Recon, but its fun for sure to drop enemies once in a while when they get too close, but not whole time like in some missions now.

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You just dont know what Force Recon do so stop refering Force Recon this way "At least to me word reconnaissance (Recon) mean non-violent mission, unless its Force Recon" damn it you'll be sorry!

[4ceReconSniper]

Camou- in creating games the developers would create the game based on what the end users (US) want in common, unfortunately your wants in the game is not the same on the wants of the majority. Such missions you have would only be playable to much mature if not adult players for its complexity. the game was designed at least for teens so the game must be adjusted to satisfy the enjoyment of the younger. Imagine you are one year old and I give you an advanced lego set would you know how play it?

[CommandoCrazy]

well said 4ceReconSniper.

i wouldn't know how to play an advanced lego set now

[Dan]

Imagine you are one year old and I give you an advanced lego set would you know how play it?

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id probably eat it...

[4ceReconSniper]

well said 4ceReconSniper.

i wouldn't know how to play an advanced lego set now

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Imagine you are one year old and I give you an advanced lego set would you know how play it?

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id probably eat it...

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hahaha youre both funny guys.. hmm i imagine myself make the lego pieces as a topping to my ice cream or pizza

[Mamon]

I think Camoflauge has a point; now, i'm no operator but from what I've read of combat accounts; GR does have some deficencies.

From what I understand a lot of the engagements nowadays take place around 150-250m ranges (though of course in CQB it would be much closer). I can't remember every engaging anything in GR past 150m. The clipping distance on most maps is under 200m and the fog decreases visibility usually to not much more than 100m.

[Camouflage]

From what I understand a lot of the engagements nowadays take place around 150-250m ranges (though of course in CQB it would be much closer). I can't remember every engaging anything in GR past 150m. The clipping distance on most maps is under 200m and the fog decreases visibility usually to not much more than 100m.

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I have usually dealt combat situations in GR bit further away, probably in game distances about 100meters away. Just position my groups around the target in recon mode, give them stop-command (prone) and after this order them to attack. Thats the time when enemies start to fall down like leaves from quite a distance.

[TestTubeDummy]

Most of those are fixed in the 'Enemy/general realism mod'.

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Hi,

which one? - where to download??

i use the RealismUpdate.. when i use it together with the enemy realism from Droopy, it dont work good together and causes some problems.

Which general realism mod do you mean??

thanxx !!

TTD

[Sup]

You can't really combine a realism mod with custom weapons, sorry.

[Republicane]

I'd like to see missions where you have to work your way into position and paint a target and then keep the target painted until it can be destroyed.

One thing I would LOVE to see, is say one of your operators gets hit you can radio for an evac, BUT if the area is too hot it can't fly in, or does fly in get shot down and you also have to rescue the crew (similar to what happened in Mogadishu)

And while this is supposedly the 5th SOG it doesn't have a single mission relating to the original mission of Green Berets, working to develop a counter insurgency.

Like when GB's linked up with the Kurdish Pesh Merga fighters in N. Iraq and 5K GB's and a few thousand KPM fighter destroyed over 11 divisions of Iraqi forces. Thats not a typo ELEVEN divisions. If you'll remember Turkey didn't allow their country to be a staging ground for US forces, so the GB's had to go in anyways to control the Northern part of Iraq.

Also being able to pick up weapons of fallen comrades or enemy fighters would be very realistic, I hate when you have to take a out a tank or a SAM and the guy carrying your AT-4 goes down and you're out of luck. Like you couldn't pick it up in real life.

Also GB's usually never are out in the field in standard issue military uniforms, they are notorious for wearing sunglasses, baseball caps, and clothing purchased on their own. The Green Berets on GR look more like Rangers then GB's.

[Snake@War]

Also GB's usually never are out in the field in standard issue military uniforms, they are notorious for wearing sunglasses, baseball caps, and clothing purchased on their own. The Green Berets on GR look more like Rangers then GB's.

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Are there any mods that do this out there? or are they ALL full equipment, standard issue?

[Parabellum]

I'd like to see missions where you have to work your way into position and paint a target and then keep the target painted until it can be destroyed.

One thing I would LOVE to see, is say one of your operators gets hit you can radio for an evac, BUT if the area is too hot it can't fly in, or does fly in get shot down and you also have to rescue the crew (similar to what happened in Mogadishu)

And while this is supposedly the 5th SOG it doesn't have a single mission relating to the original mission of Green Berets, working to develop a counter insurgency.

Like when GB's linked up with the Kurdish Pesh Merga fighters in N. Iraq and 5K GB's and a few thousand KPM fighter destroyed over 11 divisions of Iraqi forces. Thats not a typo ELEVEN divisions. If you'll remember Turkey didn't allow their country to be a staging ground for US forces, so the GB's had to go in anyways to control the Northern part of Iraq.

Also being able to pick up weapons of fallen comrades or enemy fighters would be very realistic, I hate when you have to take a out a tank or a SAM and the guy carrying your AT-4 goes down and you're out of luck. Like you couldn't pick it up in real life.

Also GB's usually never are out in the field in standard issue military uniforms, they are notorious for wearing sunglasses, baseball caps, and clothing purchased on their own. The Green Berets on GR look more like Rangers then GB's.

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First, I think that saying SF guys never go out in issue military uniforms is erroneous. Hatchetforce and other SF operators have provided plenty of pictures to the contrary. Regarding the Ghost Recon soldiers looking like Rangers, there's a reason for that: The GR characters were designed based on the US Army Rangers, according to a long-ago GR developer interview. If you'll notice, the demo soldiers are wearing the RACK system.

[AntiJargon]

Thanks for Hatchet giving the real deal so the discussion got a good start. I personally was looking for more sneaking and assigning targets prior to that, so it goes to show with the myths and the real.

Relating to the fun and realism, I also wouldn't think they are mutually exclusive, apart from going silly with stuff like a mission where the ride goes down and ain't nothing your team can do about it but end up dead to last man...

How to fit them together? First off what I would like to go away, is the mindset that you have to figure out how to play a mission tactically in order to complete it. Please leave puzzles to adventure games, GR has so much more potential than that. Example: Mission 14 on GR disc... I pigheadedly covered the infantry team with light armor and went west/left side despite dying alot. Finally I learned something completely new, instead of cautiously advancing as usual, I killed loudly and proudly a few guys on upper hills, and as hell broke loose I retreated to guard the flank of a crossfire ambush position I had set.

Realism? Big resounding NO. If AI enemy would use their grenades more, with a lower position we would have been dogfood. But the principle of luring them in, that's brains 101 I guess. And that's in one example what I mean. In the Nereta (?) swamps you can do the same thing with high risk, but tactically it's more correct, somewhat upper position, low visibility, trees, plain murder with m203's. Not that anyone valuing his life would counterattack like that over a swamp after a hit and run attack...

That's one flawed example of what I mean - a more dynamic battlefield. The maps are small, so be it, but having a full scale firefight and enemies patrolling happily 200-800 meters away, or resting in their base eats away immersion. Now, the assumption would be, "whats the fun in emptying nearly the whole map with one firefight?"

Answer, add realism. They won't attack over a swamp. They have scripted use of grenades, not just tossing a hand grenade to a spot, but rifle grenades/grenade rifles/rpgs that they target same as others use ak's.

(I already can guess why AI don't use M203 because it hits trees and walls right in front and does not properly estimate ranges. The m203's and enemy counterparts should use the same ballistics as regular bullets IMHO, if no other solution is found - and perhaps they should only detonate at beyond 9 meters. That way scripting is only necessary with choice of weapon and not exact choice of target. Unless you're possessed enough to make flawless obstacle identification and targeting, you have to cheat a bit. I'd rather see you spend 3 months on something better than making it just so. )

How does a platoon of enemies on shift guard duty on some depot area, react to lots of gunfire and explosions from 400 meter distance? Hell if I know, but depending on their training, experience, leaders, assignment and the tactical layout of surrounding terrain the response might be anything. They might have some red army politruk kind of fanatic idiot ordering all but fixed position guards to do full frontal assault. They might go to scripted ambush/hard cover defense positions. They might have several fire teams investigate it, avoiding lowest ground like plague. In any case it's a safe bet that guards on duty remain in guard and will be very alert.

What I mean is complexity of reaction might be 50% do this and 50% do that, or 3 groups (fixed guard, ambush, investigate) but no more. With GR as it is now, the map is broken into several smaller areas so instead we shoot 3 guys, 3 more guys investigate and nearby guards get alert. Better than most games but gets old. Anything that remains the same does, I'm not saying my way does not. Variation is needed.

There's one very human constant that does not change unless dealing with extremes such as drugged or fanatical enemies, and that's what Patton said, nobody wants to die for their country, they'd rather kill the other, ahem, guy. Morale would not be boring, and I don't think scripting is boring either, not in a tactical shooter like GR.

(When we have teams on supress, I don't think any of us mean "get up, fire like crazy and get shot because they will only stop and keep firing" I think we'd prefer the enemy to actually care about the m249 laying 200 shots around him. I would, to say the least. This would also work if there's 15 enemies around there once things get loud. I know there's effort to have this from the very start, but it's on the same level as Endurance value which rarely makes any difference)

To make supress count, why not have them do the same as when sniped? 1 shoots others move... or better they all get down and probably can't see you until they get a break, get up and fire again... if all but one guy die, he might (rarely) even surrender or panic and run. The prisoner taking could be included rather flexibly with current AI already. Add possibility to have enemy positions appear on your tactical map, things get interesting (people get drafted at gunpoint in quite a lot of wars). Supression becomes a tactical option given you know your enemy. Now all we need is learn how to tell them surrender...

Also by scripting enemies could grouch to good hard cover or pretty much anything, provided conditions like noise are met. Dynamic battlefield scripting + open maps is not boring. It's railshoot and scripting that is.

Those who prefer to sneak around taking them group by group, can still use silenced weapons. This is supposed to be a tactical shooter, and realism is as varied as it gets. How about you fail with a silenced weapon, hit 8, your team takes him down loud. 3 single shots are fired, 2 from ak and 1 from m16.

Experience, training and leadership. Will the officer personally go and find the poor idiot guard who's shooting at birds? Because sure as hell there's nothing else 50 miles from the enemy on this godforsaken depot... how serious is it? will they send a few guys or have a full alarm? How about do they distinguish the M16? How about if you take out a patrol with a single m203 shot?

Having just a few variables like amount and type of gunfire, quality of AI forces, the setting (hostage situation or the most boring guard job ever?), terrain, visibility and sound (thunder, machinery, artillery) can result in huge variation of AI/scripted responses that make sense.

Last but not least, as already done with the mod community, random enemy placing would greatly increase replay value. I don't see how it interferes with scripting for instance if script is in form of: if this - then go there - once there initiate script. If there's sets of both random start points and scripts to fit them, more work but much more replay value.

In short what it is now is I enter map and start stalking around killing them in twos and threes. What I could be is, should I try that, or should I pick an ambush point and get loud? Or should I sneak to their base and then set fire positions and once ready hit assault and take them down by carefully laid crossfire? This is where the brains get into play. This is where you look at the terrain, look at your intel on enemy and make educated guesses.

I'm not promoting missions like puzzles one bit. On the contrary, time limits should allow a little break for a quick plan... there should always be extra time for hassle with controls and at least advance under cover. The missions should not be death traps, except for that one way you have to figure out by trial, error and loading saves.

That's how kids also have fun, and that way you can play a mission first time and make it, and play a campaign where you don't load any saves, which robs the immersion. By 10th time you load that save all you're doing is just getting trough this damn mission, not caring about whther your guys get shot. Those who want exxtra hard missions which can only be done one way in one order with a +-1 second margin of error can play harder difficulty, and concentrate on getting everyone home safely. Also people who want action can do it loud, and stalking fans can do it quiet.

Realism, flexibility and fun. I don't see a single suggestion there that couldn't be rather easily done with options already present in GR1... just more work with missions. In fact I would rather see a content tweak on GR1 and longer line of sight, rather than some uber bumped graphics, because GR1 was/still is very nice for the eye.

Edited February 15, 2005 by AntiJargon

[Sup]

(I already can guess why AI don't use M203 because it hits trees and walls right in front and does not properly estimate ranges. The m203's and enemy counterparts should use the same ballistics as regular bullets IMHO, if no other solution is found - and perhaps they should only detonate at beyond 9 meters. That way scripting is only necessary with choice of weapon and not exact choice of target. Unless you're possessed enough to make flawless obstacle identification and targeting, you have to cheat a bit. I'd rather see you spend 3 months on something better than making it just so. )

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You're wrong there. Just two days ago I was getting shelled by very well aimed GL shots while covering my last remaining teammate in MP DEFEND.

(When we have teams on supress, I don't think any of us mean "get up, fire like crazy and get shot because they will only stop and keep firing" I think we'd prefer the enemy to actually care about the m249 laying 200 shots around him. I would, to say the least. This would also work if there's 15 enemies around there once things get loud. I know there's effort to have this from the very start, but it's on the same level as Endurance value which rarely makes any difference)

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People still take cover on supress, as far as I can tell.

To make supress count, why not have them do the same as when sniped? 1 shoots others move...

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They do. If you ambush enemies, one will usually fire back while others take cover, unless they all have clear shots.

[qsxdrgbhu]

Also the friendly AI sometimes throws and fires grenades when it i set to suppress.