On its way

[NightCrawler]

And 5 will get you 10 he's already working on some missions of his own.

well then, we can sit back and judge what he does, now that will be interesting. if he can do better than the likes of me and vipe's, than fine, try as he may, from all his experience

←

He's scripted a couple of OFP missions that are pretty darn good. But that's just my opinion.

[Whisper_44]

I think that cooler heads should prevail, 2nd is familiar with the editor, and I'm sure in due time he'll had his missions to the fray, I personally will play just about any mission that I can get, and for that Dek's 1st mission still gives me fits

We all have our own style, and let's remember that you can't please everyone, all the time.. the GR2 debate should be proof enough of that for everyone.

[Old_Geezer]

Aw please PLEASE don't chew the guy out for answering my question honestly. If he doesn't like what's out there, he shouldn't be afraid to say so if it is relevant to someone's question (it's not like he came out of the blue to just to complain).

Alot of games, movies, music, and yes, even add-on missions get mixed reviews. They may be great to most people, but that doesn't mean those who disagree aren't entitled to an opinion...especially if they don't have a knack for creating missions and have just spent big bucks on VBS1. If people only stated what they liked to the mission makers and never criticized, nobody would ever see room for improvement.

Of course, the add-on missions may be free, and while I am sure he appreciates the fact that people have invested their time creating them, I cannot see what harm could come of pointing out what he doesn't like about alot of the missions in hopes that someone might half-agree...maybe someone with a talent for creating missions. Alot of critisisms can actually be read as requests.

Anyways, cheers...sorry I brought it up

[2nd Ranger]

Guys I think he's just tryin' to give another angle, I know he likes the game. And everyone is entitled to an opinion even if it angers someone else.

That's precisely what I was doing. Old Geezer was asking about the missions side of things, and I gave him my opinion. It wasn't an open rant directed against every mission maker for VBS.

2nd, just out of curiosity how many actual combat scenarios have you been involved in? I'm not trying to berate you or something just trying to see where you are coming from.

None, I'm, not military either. What I meant by this;

very few of them I've played have come anywhere close to simulating actual scenarios, which is something I was looking forward to with VBS.

Was that some missions tend to have the likes of eight SF guys taking out one town, moving onto the next, taking that, blowing up AA, rescuing hostages etc, all in the one mission. While I myself have done missions like this in OFP, I just meant that I had expected more realistic scenarios from the people who released missions for VBS, as it is a simulator.

so 2nd ranger, why do you still play VBS, you do nothing but run it down. no it's not OFP, maybe you should stick to that.

You seem to think I'm having a go at you, I'm not. And I love VBS. I like to shoot stuff too. I don't expect every mission out there to be realistic, but I haven't come across many such missions as of yet. Edited January 26, 2005 by 2nd Ranger

[T_1]

And 5 will get you 10 he's already working on some missions of his own.

←

There is something on the way. If we, (Ranger, someone else, and I are working on something for VBS at the moment) are going to be judged on it then so be it.

A man who never made a mistake, never made anything

I agree with Ranger tho, VBS is geared more towards MP (in the sense that more than one human is in the team), whereas, excluding TvT gameplay, OFP has a long and distingushed pedigree for Single Player.

VBS is a step up from OFP, but neither is my lord and master.

That's my Girlfriends job

[2nd Ranger]

There is something on the way. If we, (Ranger, someone else, and I are working on something for VBS at the moment) are going to be judged on it then so be it

Oooooh... *excitement* Edited January 26, 2005 by 2nd Ranger

[NightCrawler]

I'll judge you!!

[Sart]

(Ranger, someone else, and I are working on something for VBS at the moment)

Keeping secrets from the rest of us eh? Jerks!

[2nd Ranger]

Maybe you're not 1337 enough to be in on the secret?

[Sart]

I put the 33 in 1337.

[T_1]

As Sart is so delicately trying to put it, he is the Third Man.

[Chems]

2nd, just out of curiosity how many actual combat scenarios have you been involved in?

←

I myself sonny boy have fought from the Pixel beachs of Normandy through France and Germany. Then through a full hi tec slighly low res campaign in Russia. Then a few months later to be shipped out to fight in the sands of Eritrea with some lovly colours. Then shortly after that I was sent to the jungle of Cuba to sort our druggies. Then after that I went solo and went all over the world doing what the Ironside Voice told me to. Then after that I had a breif spell in the jungle of the carribean man, fighting some mercs, but when they turned into evil monsters I quit the only army man army and instead went on to fight with the Special Forces trying to either rescue or kill this VIP in a hospital most of the time. So yeah quite a lot!

In my day we had respect, I remember one day old chap, chalks were away and jerry was coming in his focker wolf down from the sun, and I had respect for him coming all the way to fight us brave RAF piolts, then there was the time.......

[Zebb]

Now do you see what drugs will do to you ?, just say No, Kids.....

[ScarfaceSAS]

2nd, just out of curiosity how many actual combat scenarios have you been involved in?

←

I myself sonny boy have fought from the Pixel beachs of Normandy through France and Germany. Then through a full hi tec slighly low res campaign in Russia. Then a few months later to be shipped out to fight in the sands of Eritrea with some lovly colours. Then shortly after that I was sent to the jungle of Cuba to sort our druggies. Then after that I went solo and went all over the world doing what the Ironside Voice told me to. Then after that I had a breif spell in the jungle of the carribean man, fighting some mercs, but when they turned into evil monsters I quit the only army man army and instead went on to fight with the Special Forces trying to either rescue or kill this VIP in a hospital most of the time. So yeah quite a lot!

In my day we had respect, I remember one day old chap, chalks were away and jerry was coming in his focker wolf down from the sun, and I had respect for him coming all the way to fight us brave RAF piolts, then there was the time.......

←

[Chems]

^^^

Above you will see a perfect example by Chems of a pointless post.

Edited January 26, 2005 by Chems

[AUS_Viper]

Lots of emotion in this thread, there is, much anger in this one, hmmmm.....as Yoda would say.

I'd just like to throw my 2 cents worth in.....

If it's single player you're after, then you'd be better with OFP

Totally agree with Ranger. VBS1 was primarily designed for MP and as such does not offer any campaign style gameplay. Most mission scripters also seem to recognise that there is a much bigger audience in MP than SP, so hence most missions are based on MP involvement.

Personally I've found that most of the VBS1 missions out there (currently) are quite poor.

Hmmm.

I can say that I have downloaded a few average missions that are obviously just a few units thrown into the editor with a basic briefing, but to say "most missions" is probably going too far.

Agree everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the following should also be noted:

1. Scripters put missions up for download for one main reason - so others can have the fun they are having. True, some scripters are better than others, but no-one deliberately puts up a mission for download that they think is rubbish. Agree, one persons perspective of "good" maybe anothers perspective of "rubbish" - but it all depends on the individuals scripting experience and/or the gaming experience they have had with either OFP or VBS1.

2. VBS1 isn't necessarily all ex OPF players and/or scripters. Some are ex GR and have no previous experience with the OPF editor. What was quite a simple task in IGOR isn't so in the VBS1 editor. Classic example is setting up loops using "continue if statements". Whilst it may seem an obvious solution to OFP diehards, the GR boys have to learn a whole new language - which incidentally has a much more unforgiving syntax. Leave out a " or a ; and you're in trouble. Not to mention "expected array, receieved unit" or something to that effect.

3. VBS1 hasn't been out all that long in terms of gaming longevity. Many scripters are learning with each mission they script. Look at GR when it first came out, or for that matter OFP. Before OFPEC was born, there was some damn average missions out there - but since the game came with no scripters syntax bible, it was learnt the hard way.

4. Scripters need specific feedback to improve. It's easy for any person to say "the missions are poor", but ask yourself this.....did you post comments on the resource centre where you downloaded the mission from? Did you email the scripter with CONSTRUCTIVE feedback? If the answer is no in both cases, then bitching about the current missions is not really going to improve your MP gaming experience at all. Don't fall into the trap of a certain member of CTCcorp - critisizing is easy, offering recommendations requires a slightly more intelligent mind.

5. Realism? I keep reading this about VBS1 missions. All the usual stuff, it's not realisitic coz 6 SF guys take out a whole platoon of OPFOR. A few words on this subject...

(5.1)VBS1 may be a training simulator, but its not real. In real life ppl die and don't respawn. The weapons may be carbon copies of the real things, as with the uniforms and vehicles and aircraft and artillery - but it's just a game! CTC and BIA and BIS may sing to a different tune, but let's be honest with ourselves for just one minute. It's a damn computer application. Sure it can certainly assist with training, but it can't compete with rifles in hand, hitting the dirt, rounds going off around you type of action.

When was the last time you finished playing VBS or GR and had the smell of gun oil on your fingers, or you had a bloodied knee from where you hit a branch on your way down to prone, or you had a your mate ###### himself with fear next to you under fire? That doesn't even include the issue of a 7.62mm round tearing through your flesh and splintering your bone from a OPFOR weapon. And then the blood loss from the wound that no real life medic can fix in the space of 2 seconds. Of course then the shock sets in and no OPF or VBS1 medic will help you remove the shiver, the sweating or the pysch fear you are hit with.

Sure, thats taking it to the nth degree, but when I hear ppl talk about realism in a simulator I can't help myself.

(5.2) Scripters script to a specific audience. You want realism, then sure I'll whip you up a mission in 3 minutes. Standard NATO doctrine states that offensive action is only initiated if the ratio of BLUFOR to OPFOR is 3:1. Any higher than that and its lay down covering fire and get the hell out of there.

A VBS1 mission with realistic NATO doctrine.....Here goes...

An ADF section (not squad or group) of 10 men plus section leader is inserted close to one single objective. For the sake of this scenario, lets say the objective is to take an enemy position. So 11 standard troops (not SF) land in a "safe" LZ and move close to the enemy position. Based on the 3:1 ration, the enemy pos has 4 men (rounding excluded). They move to the OP and from a distance call in Arty to soften up the targets. Once the Arty is finished, 11 men move in to kill 4 OPFOR. Realistic - yes; Fun - no way.

Scripters make missions for an pre-determined audience. If the audience is the ADF, USMC, etc then you'll get the above. If the audience is 12 guys online who want to have some fun on a Tuesday night, then you'll get 12 BLUFOR vs 50 OPFOR. Sure it's not realistic, but at least every member of the team gets an opportunity to score "a kill". Waiting all week to play a mission that has your team outnumbering the enemy by 3:1 is not a very enjoyable MP experience.

(5.3) Anyone that wants total realism in a tactical FPS I suggest you go to your local recruiting office and join up. God knows we need the numbers.

(5.4) Most missions involve SF against heavy OPFOR numbers. Of course they do! Those not in the military take intel from the media. Who looks the sexiest in the military from movies, doco's and news footage (with their face blacked out)? Answer = SF!

SF are fun to play as since they get the best weapons and have the "cool or sexy" tag. In RL, nothing sexy about running a heap of KM's with a massive load on your back just to remain in "Operational Effectiveness Mode". Again its the Demand vs Supply calculation. Not many gamers want to jump into a private in the regs to go on a patrol. New mission by Viper - be a private in the ADF and go on patrol in East Timor. Walk around for 60 minutes and then return to base without having a 5.56mm casing hit the ground. No OPFOR sited, but thank god I'm not bleeding - pretty boring mission in VBS1 if you ask me.

I just realised this post is becoming a ###### novel, so I'll finish up quickly.

If your not happy with the missions others have made, in their own time, for no financial benefit - then have the guts to send them an email with constructive critisicm. Don't make blanket statements in a public forum where other "less informed" readers may make an ill-informed decision about both the game and the community.

And....If you can do better, then not only do it - but share it.

A man that makes a great mission will be remembered by the ppl that download his mission, but the man that helps others make a great mission will not only be remembered by the ppl that download it but also by the scripters he has helped and the new scripters that learn from the mission they review.

A classic example here is Jack57. Makes fantastic missions, but he is most respected for his willingness to help others. I guess thats why they call it a community

Here endeth the lesson.

All now rise and take communion

[WP33]

Very good post, Viper, and one I think we can all agree with.

New mission by Viper - be a private in the ADF and go on patrol in East Timor.  Walk around for 60 minutes and then return to base without having a 5.56mm casing hit the ground. 

←

Wow, you can do a whole campaign!

[warhawk]

@AUS_Viper

Very good post indeed. I have been saying this sort of thing, only not as well as you just did, for a couple of years now. Except in my case it was about Ghost Recon and not only covered mission scripting but "realistic weapons" in an unrealistic enviroment. Good points one and all.

Stout Hearts

Warhawk

[Zebb]

Nice post Viper, if anyone thinks that by playing a game they can recreate the realism of combat they are sorely mistaken.

[Whisper_44]

but at least every member of the team gets an opportunity to score "a kill"

Not ever member - you have to be l33t to get kills Viper..some of us aren't quite there yet, myself I'm too busy trying to figure out how you guys got the name CSHAG

Seriously - great post

[warhawk]

but at least every member of the team gets an opportunity to score "a kill"

Not ever member - you have to be l33t to get kills Viper..some of us aren't quite there yet, myself I'm too busy trying to figure out how you guys got the name CSHAG

Seriously - great post

←

This might help a little.....Think of Austin Powers.....

Stout Hearts

Warhawk

[Old_Geezer]

Thanks Viper. You've sealed the deal for me. I've got OFP goty and plan to dive in this weekend. Even after puttering around in one of the original single missions I imediately remembered why OFP was so different from the rest.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good round of multiplayer, but having complete control over an AI squad is where I get my biggest kicks.

[dekela]

my thoughts on life are simple, pee in my pocket, and i'll crap in your hat. hence the tension in my previous posts. while there is no doubt that i enjoy scripting for vbs users, it takes time to do so from my RL. while this may not seem important to some younger or single guys/gals, the likes of myself, vipes and jack are all family men. that means that for every minute we spend in the vbs editor for other peoples enjoyment, is one less that we spend with our wives and kids for our enjoyment. yes there are some "not good" missions out there, but to blanket all of them is what gets my goat going. and as all of the CSHAG guy's know, mission's we release are VERY heavily hammered in MP before release, with up to 10 versions being done. input from former and current military personel is included and taken on board for the next version. so as for realism, we get it in balance. realistic missions with a gamers slant really. as vipes said, a 12 hours OP duty mission would more than be enough to put one to sleep, so you need to throw in some excitement. and as for using SASR, well i script for CSHAG first and foremost, and most of us are aussie's. of cause we are going to want to play as our army's flagship regiment.

cheers......

[ZJJ]

IT'S HERE!!!!!

[Whisper_44]

Hey Dekk's nice post..keep cranking them out

Bout time Zjj - look forward to seeing you and the Phntm