Homemade PC game

[DooDaa 0]

Hello,

After seeing all of this modding going on in the GR community, I was wondering how difficult it would be to create your own PC FPS game. Not that I am planning to do nor do I have any experience at all in 3D models or programming so my questions or comments might seem ignorant or simplistic.

In the GR modding community there are just incredible individuals in terms of talent and skill. People with self-taught or course educated skills. Guys that can create incredible models, script awesome events, great sounds and so forth. These guys have done more to GR than the developers in some ways. Remember that many feature were first implemented by modders although crudely. We can't even begin to think how successful GR might have been without the innovative ways of these dedicated fans.

So...what more is required to create a game by fans for fans? Money? Probably.

Take LFS. An underground home project by three guys, one programmer, one 3D artist and a sound-musician specialist. Yes, I know that some of these guys have worked for major game studios creating major works but don't they all start the same? The funding is entirely their own. In their spare time.

They have created a racing simulation game that is easily on par with the greatest racing sims out there. Yes, graphics are not equal with Race Driver or NFS series but the whole package is awesome work. Remember that these guys have no publisher. Codemasters actually said they have tried LFS and their next racing game (Race Driver 2) with be much more realistic.

So what will it take? Can a bunch of guys in their spare time collaborate and do something similiar or is FPS games a much more complex thing?

[DonMiguel 11]

well, thats a complex question really. It depends on what you are wanting in the game. A small team or fledgling company doesn't typically have the funds to license or build the kind of next gen engines we see in the main stream market today. So, automatically we're talking subpar visual/audio/AI/physics and ect. This isn't always to case, but 9/10 times it will be. Teams want to focus on gameplay code over engine code if possible, they don't want to re-invent the wheel if at all possible. Some adjustments to do some extra features possibly, but tahts it. Really thats true with small or large companies, get the engine license that'll be fit your needs right off the bat without having to go custom from scratch and won't require major rewrites to accomodate your project.

Most small groups/companies don't have the resources either for adding certain features. For instance, you can have a great programmer and still not have someone who's well versed in all the needed areas (game play code, graphics code, effects code, GUI code, AI code, physics code, net code, ect). Without that strength in even a couple of those areas you're going to have a weaker product then you'd like. Bigger teams have specialists typically that are focused in those areas and you can do far more as a designer cause you know you can get the design features done.

You also have learning curves for the different engines. You can take someone from RSE's code team and dump em on a team for UT2k4 for instance, and if that programmer hasn't done stuff in the Unreal engine before, they are going to have to spend alot of time learning that engine in order to really be good there. That even brings you to a side note, which is until you have spent time learning an engine you are not going to see all those little "holes" that make your life difficult. So when you start out and see an engine, you might not even realize that a certain feature that "looks" possible actually is plagued with pitfalls. GR modders new and old will know this feeling. It seems like you could do lots with GR until you really start getting into the nitty gritty of modding and realize, "oh so thats why they didn't do what I want to do". Unfortunately this isn't something you can forsee sometimes esp if you are trying to evaluate multiple engines for your project.

So in answer to your question, yes a group of modders or whoever can sit down and create a game, any type they want to. But there's a ton of little questions that they had better be thinking about for the project or the simple task of starting up is going to overwhelm them and kill the project before it really even gets off the ground.

[WytchDokta 6]

I know someone who is thinking about making thier own game. Of course, I would be involved in helping him. He's been researching how to make the game engine for years. He's reseached everything and is good to go. I think he wanted to start it the other day but didn't know where to build the engine first or the .dll thingy's. Seriously, this is no joke, I can put you guys ibto contact with him if you want. We can all contribute and make our own GR2 much better than RSE's!!

[DooDaa 0]

Thanks for the info. I have several questions.

I know that game creators license game engines from developers to save time or because a lack of engine coding experience but do they really save money? Don't say that time is money because I'm talking about part-time on the side thing. Anyone know approximate cost of a first rate engine? Like Unreal for example.

Also do game developers release the source code on old game engines if they don't plan to do anything with the old engine. Like GR for example.

I also read from somewhere that you can get open source game engines and physics. I don't remember where I saw it.

My last question....might have been discussed before. Can someone actually make a game based on the stolen Source Engine code? I don't mean a Half Life 2 game but one with your own models and stuff. I'm assuming that the coding for AI and stuff is there. If they do, can Valve actually identify the coding as their own if the "bad guys" change some stuff.

Programmers might laugh at my simplistic views but please remember that I ask these questions from a basic public knowledge standpoint. I'm just curious that's all.

Thank you.

[DonMiguel 11]

Unreal's current engine I believe is $300,000 US. However I think the newer ones like Unreal 3, HL2 and such are gonna be around 1/2 million. These are not for the hobbist developer.

There's actually alot of lower cost, or free game engines. Many of the free game engines require you be part of an open source community where your engine modifications and sometimes game source is totally open to the public. Most of these you can still use in a commerical capacity, but some are turned off by the forced "open source" of their game.

As far as using stolen engine sources. It would be very unwise to use it no matter what engine it is. People like Valve do not play around with stuff and will hunt you down if you're found out. And yes, engines are typically specific enough that you can tell very quickly what engine its using, esp when its a widely distributed one like Unreal, Quake 3, and Halflife. Its not worth the jail and monetary penalties by even touching "stolen" source code, no matter what its from.

I'd suggest looking at the net for different free or lower cost engines. A few off the top of my head are:

- 3D Game Studio

- Cipher

- Irrlicht

- Torque

- OGRE

- Neo Engine

- Cube

- Quake 2

[firefly2442 0]

Funny you ask about this as I have been researching Graphics Engines all day. Here's one that I found that is very promising. Examples compile well. I'm a C++ newbie though so it will take some getting used to. There are a lot of open source projects out there and free programs.

3d modeling:

-Blender (awesome load of features but looks confusing for a newbie)

-Quark (looks good, doesn't support the format I will be using though)

-Wings 3D (awesome, simple, maybe a little too simple)

The Graphics Engine:

http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net

Anyway, hope it's useful for ya.

[DooDaa 0]

$300,000 ? Sweet Jesus. I didn't realize that game engines cost so much. I guess if you think about all the work involved it's justified. I assume because of the limited amount of demand they need to charge top dollar. Five to six average to above average FPS games out a year x $300,000 - $500,000. Hmm...not much of a market.

DonMiguel,

Regarding your statement that game engines are specific enough to identify, are talking about the looks or actual code content. I was under the impression that once a game is compiled the game code is not used for the final product.

Thanks for the info, very intresting stuff in laymans terms. You are extremely knowledgeable. Are you self taught or do you have course training?

Thank you.

[DonMiguel 11]

well, HL, Quake and Unreal each have a noticable file/folder system. Examine Unreal by looking at Splinter Cell, UT2k3, and RavenShield. Or Quake with Jedi Knight 2/Jedi Academy. HL I'm not sure what other games use the engine outside of "commercial mods" like CounterStrike, Day of Defeat, Team Fortress, and a few more. Those all have the similiar system too.

As far as me, I'm just a hobbiest developer. I've been researching engines for almost 2 years now, originally for modding so I could find the engine that would best work with what I wanted to do in terms of projects but I'd be lying if I said I haven't entertained the ideas now and again with doing something commercial as well.

A suggestion, if you or those interested are new to development, I would highly recommend spending some time modding before you go for the money. As fun as development is, you are gonna run into some headaches that'll make you rethinking just how fun it is . Modding gives not only practical experience with content and code creation, but it'll also help you know yourself and if you have what it'll take to go into commercial development. As an indepentant developer, you're gonna have to be experienced in design, content creation, programming, project leading, human resources, PR, marketing, and possibly even distribution. Thats not to say you shouldn't go for it, but I'd hate to see anyone really invest themselves without good preparation and not see their project completed.

Anyways, hope that helps you some and good luck on your endeavors.

[Jack57 0]

Another good one to look at for inspiration is SimBin and the soon to be released GTR Racing Sim. They started life as a modding team and soon developed a reputation in the community for high quality work. At some stage they decided to go commercial and bought the licence to use ISI's game engine. Judging from the demo of GTR they are guaranteed of success, borne of extreme dedication and professionalism.

[Chems 0]

Ive been thinking the same things, someone once told me that the DirectX engine was good for making your own games. Personally I think that HL2 mods is as much as you need if your planning anything FPS based because its code can be edited not the engine code the game code I belive, so that way instead of going groan RSE wont let me do that you could if you knew what you were doing code it yourself. It would be so daunting to buy your own engine thou

[DooDaa 0]

Imagine this...

10,000 GR or serious Tac-Sim fans worldwide contribute $40.00 each to a special trust fund (World Wide Game Cooperative) to make their own game with a purchased game engine.

Talent worldwide in a special group with board members and investors.

A special liason attached to a forum to garner ideas and such. Of course not eveyone as a direct say to the course of the game but a collective voice or vote.

Sigh...how to get started.

[firefly2442 0]

Or you could make it all on open source software and charge whatever you wanted.

edit: Don Miguel have you tried any of the engines you mentioned? Just curious to see what you thought.

Edited June 1, 2004 by firefly2442

[DonMiguel 11]

- 3D Game Studio Yes, its got a host of editors and such. Not great for FPS IMO (that I saw in demos and other project WIPs)

- Cipher Not yet

- Irrlicht Downloaded it before, was waiting on a newer version to come out to allow things I wanted in the engine before I played seriously with it

- Torque I'm currently looking at this one. Its a tried and tested engine (Tribes 2) so there's lots of benefits with that. Looking forward to seeing a new version coming out with pixel shaders

- OGRE A little bit, but not alot. It is nice looking though

- Neo Engine Not yet

- Cube No, and probably won't. I didn't see anything showing of engine features except realtime terrain editing in game. Until I see an actual game using it I won't bother.

- Quake 2 No, again probably won't. Its just to old. But some may want to mess with it.

Mind you when I've looked I was focused on their feature sets, ease of use, costs and other factors. Just because I haven't looked doesn't mean they aren't worth looking at.

[firefly2442 0]

Thanks.