Peace Keepers with a sense of humor

[Kewl]

"A birthday card displaying handcuffs wrapped into a red ribbon was sent by NATO-led peacekeepers Friday in the form of posters and newspaper ads to one of Bosnia's top war crimes suspects at large"

Bosnian Serb wartime commander Gen. Ratko Mladic is marking his 62nd birthday somewhere in hiding. He was indicted in 1995 by the U.N. war-crimes tribunal in The Hague for genocide and other atrocities committed during Bosnia's 1992-95 war.

The text below the handcuffs said: "Ratko, we have not forgotten about you." In a line below it added: " This will be your only present soon," hinting that peacekeepers may soon be able to arrest and handcuff him."

full story at http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/0...c.ap/index.html

[RampItUp46]

Man, I hope they get that guy soon. I guess I'm pretty ignorant on that stuff... I thought they already got Mladic along with Milosevic. And I KNOW they got Milosevic because I read an article recently about how it looks like he is going to get off without any kind of sentence at all. Un-freaking-believable. What kind of lawyer do you have to get to get away with genocide? Who did he hire, Johnny Cochran?

Does anyone know the current status of that other Serb war criminal, Radovan Karadazic (sic)? Is he still at large or did they get him?

[Kewl]

Man, I hope they get that guy soon. I guess I'm pretty ignorant on that stuff... I thought they already got Mladic along with Milosevic. And I KNOW they got Milosevic because I read an article recently about how it looks like he is going to get off without any kind of sentence at all. Un-freaking-believable. What kind of lawyer do you have to get to get away with genocide? Who did he hire, Johnny Cochran?

Where did you read that he might be getting off with genocide? I'd like to check that out. I havent seen/heard much about his trial but as for his lawyer, he defended himself. The last i heard his health issues were delaying the court procedure. Also, the trial, at least i think but i'm not sure, could go for another 2 years; War crimes courts give equal time to the defendants as used by the prosecution. Regarding Radovan Karadzic, he's also still at large. You can read a recent report of Bosnian Serb police increasing their search for him at http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/0...reut/index.html

Edited March 13, 2004 by Kewl

[tyovan4]

I saw as well that Milosevic might be getting off..

Also saw on BBC News website the other day about a Serb guy getting convicted for murdering a few people and two Croat generals pleading not guilty to war crimes.

[supasniper]

this reminds me of a story a read about a guy who was caught speeding by a raod side camera and was sent a picture of his car going over the limit, he then sent the police a picture of a cheque written out to the amount of the fine, a couple days later he received a picture of a pair of handcuffs. and who says the police don't have a sence of humour...

[PATRI0T]

RampItUp46 Posted on Mar 13 2004, 07:21

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man, I hope they get that guy soon.

You wish...

What kind of lawyer do you have to get to get away with genocide? Who did he hire, Johnny Cochran?

He didn't want to get lawyer nor he need lawyer since there is no war crime that he can be convicted of.

At least he is guilty as much as Croatian, Bosnian or other former presidents are.

You can read a recent report of Bosnian Serb police

Every Serb that betrays mother Serbia and our nation will get same what former traitor Prime Minister Djindjic got.

When world start to use same law for everyone on Earth then We can speak about judgment and guiltiness.

Until then every single discussion about that is not competent as well as court in Hag is just big and ugly farce.

Patriot

[tyovan4]

Patriot, where in Serbia are you from? Beograd? Just curious - I have relatives in Banat in Vojvodina. My last name is Yovanovich (traditional Jovanovic)

BTW: here are links to those news stories I was talking about earlier:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3506210.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3507636.stm

[PATRI0T]

Hi tyovan, it is always nice to meet someone who didn't forget his background.

I am not born in Serbia but in city which was sold by our politicians to Croatia.

However I know Novi Sad and some other parts of Vojvodina pretty well.

Unfortunately I had to leave country so I am in Canada now trying to learn English, lol.

Who knows maybe we get some chance to play some GR.

Patriot

P.S.

Sve najbolje od Zorana iz Kanade.

[tyovan4]

Did you live in Serbian Krajina? Whereabouts in Canada are you living now?

Hi tyovan, it is always nice to meet someone who didn't forget his background.

Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava

[PATRI0T]

Tyovan, check your message box for some answers.

I would not like to go away from subject under this topic so I believe that is more convenient way to answer on your questions.

Patriot

[RampItUp46]

Patriot:

He didn't want to get lawyer nor he need lawyer since there is no war crime that he can be convicted of.

At least he is guilty as much as Croatian, Bosnian or other former presidents are.

Are you saying he had no knowledge of the mass graves? That part of his nationalist agenda wasn't preventing the Bosnians from separating, to the point where they were talking about exterminating the Muslim people of Bosnia? And let's not even discuss his role in the Kosovo conflict...

The fact is, I don't believe Karadazic and Mladic acted alone, and I don't think anyone else does either. Milosevic had to have some knowledge. The "Great Serbia", all the way to the Pacific... Milosevic didn't believe in that and getting it at any means necessary?

I'm not trying to disrespect you Patriot, or the Serbian people. I want to keep this thread civil. You have every right to feel proud about your country. But I also have a right to feel sympathy for the Bosnian and Croatian people who suffered.

The Hague indicted these men for a reason. Such a court doesn't call men "war criminals" for no reason. It's obvious at least that these men have blood on their hands and regardless of whether or not they are judged and sentence in a court here on earth, I believe they will be judged and sentenced in the next life for their crimes.

Yes, I do wish they catch those men at large. I wish that those countries in the former Yugoslavia will know peace and life without bloodshed.

Edited March 15, 2004 by RampItUp46

[PATRI0T]

Are you saying he had no knowledge of the mass graves?

What do You mean by that?

We all know that there were "mass graves" so do You want to say that We all (You, me or anyone else), are "war criminals"?

to the point where they were talking about exterminating the Muslim people of Bosnia?

I heard so many times this and similar like: "Serbs exterminated Croatians, Muslims..."

Let see the facts my friend. In Serbian Krajina (today Croatia), You had over million of Serbs and today just a few old Serbs who had luck to not be killed by Croatians so they can show those Serbs to CNN and similar and say: "Yes We still have Serbs here!"

Same happened on Kosovo and parts of Bosnia so I am agreeing with You and better let not speak about it.

Ah, just one more thing. How You then explain war between Muslims and Croatians and how You explain that some of Muslims fought with Serbs toward other Muslims? (same that still cover All-Kaida and other muslim terrorist groups members)? But no, when it comes to Serbia then there is no such a thing like terrorism rather there is just genocide… You don't need to tell me that since I had such experience on my skin and just to make sure that somebody will not make from me somebody else as it used to be case, I am Serb, Thank You.

The fact is, I don't believe Karadazic and Mladic acted alone, and I don't think anyone else does either.

That is major point right there. People have to understand that war would not happen without foreign influence that waked up some "old" problems and helped to nationalists on any side in that war.

The "Great Serbia", all the way to the Pacific...

This would be funny but it is not. It is sad. Let me explain this by next question:

Do You want to tell me that if other nations in former Yugoslavia had right to form new countries and separate that Serbs didn't have same right?

I'm not trying to disrespect you Patriot, or the Serbian people. I want to keep this thread civil.

I appreciate that RampItUp46.

However I already regretted since I know that I can not fight against media and peoples believes in this side of world toward Russia, Serbia, China or else. I should say no word but I was way too emotional because of listening opinions of just one side and pointing just from one corner.

I'll make sure to not make such a mistake again unless I speak with people who are able to hear both sides in conflict. I promise.

But I also have a right to feel sympathy for the Bosnian and Croatian people who suffered.

Right, why would somebody care about Serbian civilians who died and were tortured when Serbs don't kiss anyone’s @$$ so let spit on those Serbs who died just because they didn't like to change their religion or leave their homes. Nothing new...

Such a court doesn't call men "war criminals" for no reason.

Until You prove that is true You have no rights to call anyone like that.

I wish that those countries in the former Yugoslavia will know peace and life without bloodshed.

Then leave as all and forever.

Without foreign influence people in former Yugoslavia had LIFE and since that wasn't good for NATO who pushed nationalists in every single nation there. Now We are all going to suffer through many generations to come back but We will. I know that.

Patriot

[White Oak]

Patriot+SD, well said my friend, the media potrays Serbians as evil , but they have the right to self determination, a lot of people, either don't realise or don't want to hear , that Muslims have practised ethnic cleansing against the Serbian people. Once again in the media you only see one side of the coin.

http://neobyzantine.agrino.org/movement/an...vo_genocide.htm

Edited March 16, 2004 by White Oak

[SnowFella]

I guess in one way I shouldn't post in this thread but emotions and memories have gotten the better of me so here goes.

You can't really say one side was right or wrong in this conflict as both sides committed atrocities, and that is a fact no one can deny nowadays. On both sides of the conflict there were irregular units that did things breaking the geneva convention, among them genocide, the proof of this is beyond any doubt.

And don't think I'm just posting this from knowledge I've learnt by reading newspapers or seeing the news on tv, I spent 6 months of my life there with the Swedish peacekeeping force during 1997-1998 making sure the fragile peace held. I've seen with my own 2 eyes the results of this conflict and in a way I share the pain caused by it. Seeing ppl starting to regain a normal life, as normal as they can hope for, in the region was one of the few things that has made it worth the few nightmares that I'm probably are going to have for the rest of my life! Other things was seeing the smile on kids faces as we, the swedish batalion, built playgrounds in orphanages and handed out personally collected toys. Yep, I personally went around daycare centres back home during my 2 week leave and asked for donations in the way of toys for orphanages in our AOR (Area Of Responsebility), I even tossed in my own childhood toys for good measure!

[RampItUp46]

I don't think I'm refusing to listen to both sides of the story. I believe the Serbs have every right to live in peace and determine their own future, and I do feel sorry for the Serb civilians who suffered and died.

But the fact remains that these men, Serb or whatever, should face responsibility for what they did. I don't deny that Bosnian or Croat soldiers retaliated by shedding Serbian blood... But I have yet to read, see or hear anything on comparison with what Mladic and Karadzic carried out. Where is the Srebrenica with Serb victims? Where are the news reports of Bosnian tanks rolling into Slovenia or Croatia? If that was really the case, we would see Bosnian officials being tried for war crimes. What does the U.N. or NATO gain from protecting the Bosnian Muslims? Are they really so powerful and important that they control the world governments? That's news to me!

I'm not saying all Bosnians or Croats are innocent... Just that I think Mladic, Karadzic and Milosevic are guilty, as are those men who were indicted with them. The evidence points to that.

Milosevic knew what was going on... Not in the way we know, now, removed and detached from the whole ugly business... He knew before, and he acted on it. Do you think Serb forces would be causing turmoil in Bosnia without someone briefing Milosevic? Do you think someone would not tell him about what was going on in Kosovo?

I'm not some blind American patriot who only believes what his government tells him. I think it's shameful that more people in the world don't care enough to lift a voice in protest when it's revealed Milosevic might be getting acquitted. Most people in the world don't care about the state of things in the Balkans, just because it doesn't affect their daily lives.

Once again, nothing against you or the Serbian people, Patriot. But if you want to support men such as Mladic, Karadzic and Milosevic, you should acknowledge what that means to some people.

Since this thread will likely be locked soon for turning political, I guess this will all be moot anyway, but I believe passionately in it, as I am sure you believe passionately in Serbia.

P.S. I know Karadzic mentioned the "extermination of the Muslim people" because I've seen it with my own eyes. He said, "You are leading Bosnia down the path of Croatia and Slovenia, and you taking this country to hell and we may very well see the extermination of the Muslim people!"

"Ethnic cleansing" was borne out of all this. These are the facts.

[xG5kdo]

Let me pitch in here a bit, based on what I know from talking to Serbs, Croats, and Muslims when I was in NY.

First, all are Bosnians. Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats, Bosnian Muslims, at least that was what the Serbian guy who had coffee with me said.

Who was wrong and who was right? Well, everyone were evil in the war. Vukovar for instance, was one of the land mark cases that showed the brutality of Serbian Paramilitary Units (many if not all staffed by criminals organized by underworld bosses contracted by Milosevic) or Serbian "Special Police". The reports of mass executions were too numerous to discount as a disinformation.

However, my Serbian friend (yes, he's a friend) said that the Muslim armies took him to jail and beat him up pretty savagely for refusing to fight for them. And we all know that "snipers" from all side (if you can call shooting at clusters of women and children around a water tap or bread shop "sniping") were responsible for the many, many civilian casualties in the war. Also the indiscriminate shelling by all sides.

About Kosovo? Well, the Albanians there were immigrants right? Kosovo had always been a Serbian territory. The Albanians came in from Albania, and they set up shop. Refusing to pay taxes, etc. etc. So no wonder the Serbs wanted them out! Imagine if hordes of Mexicans enter Texas openly, then set up their shops, slums, and businesses there, then refuse to pay State Taxes? What would the U.S. Government do?

At the end, my friend said something that really touched me. He said, "My next door neighbour was a Muslim, I used to play with his kids. The guy who lived accross the street was a Croat. We all used to go for beer together. We were friends. Then the war happened. I don't know what happened to them."

The war, in my perception, was sparked by the political and territorial ambitions of the political leaders of each nationality. The rank and file, ordinary members of society really didn't have any problems with each other. Kind of makes you wish Tito is still around eh?

Out.

[PATRI0T]

I don't think I'm refusing to listen to both sides of the story. I believe the Serbs have every right to live in peace and determine their own future, and I do feel sorry for the Serb civilians who suffered and died.

Nice to hear since it didn't sound like that in your previous posts.

But the fact remains that these men, Serb or whatever, should face responsibility for what they did.

Agree! No-one has a right to kill civilians or war prisoners or similar but as I said until law is same for all We can not speak about law and that is amen.

Where is the Srebrenica with Serb victims?

I'll never deny that Serbs were killing members of the other sides in that war and I would like You to show me one war where one side didn't kill another.

Where are the news reports of Bosnian tanks rolling into Slovenia or Croatia? If that was really the case, we would see Bosnian officials being tried for war crimes. What does the U.N. or NATO gain from protecting the Bosnian Muslims? Are they really so powerful and important that they control the world governments?

I feel sorry for myself since I just realized how much You know and how much You are talking about what happen in last 10 years of 20th century on the Balkan. Therefore this going to be my last replay.

No insulting or anything like that but asking such a questions and not understanding what I told You do not permit me to continue this discussion.

Do you think Serb forces would be causing turmoil in Bosnia without someone briefing Milosevic? Do you think someone would not tell him about what was going on in Kosovo?

Yes.

And let me ask You another question. You have two 7 and 8 years old daughters playing behind front lines and You are watching them.

Next You see them dieing, being killed by sniper ahead of your eyes.

Are You going to have mercy toward anyone on the other side that You going to meet?

you should acknowledge what that means to some people.

Pride my friend, just a pride. I am first one who would put bullet in Milosevic forehead since he destroyed my nation by some stupid politic decisions but talking about that war no one have a right to judge just one side in that conflict and that is why Milosevic was that long leader of Serbia. NATO kept him there by treating only Serbs in way that NATO did. What happen with Milosevic when war finally finished? Serbs throw him in dust where he belongs but do not make mistake. If You want to judge Milosevic take other actors from that dirty war in court as well. NATO included.

And to answer not asked question why NATO did that way I am telling You next. People here are not aware how important was Yugoslavia as factor in that part of world or Africa and Asia so who would liked to have strong country with such an influence that is not NATO follower placed in the middle of Europe? What is sad is that Yugoslavia wasn't treat to anyone and to prove that is decision of former president and marshal Tito to not develop nuclear weapon when We had chance to do it.

And word about Mladic. He was general of Serbian army in Bosnia and as such he was doing his job. He is soldier who did his job by protecting Serbs and fighting enemies what makes him hero but never war criminal.

Will You as American put your major commander from Iraq in court in Hag? I'll answer for You. Never. So why You expect Serbs to do same?

Soldiers do what they are ordered but they do not make massacre. That is what paramilitary forces do and who can control it in one war where You don't know who is your friend and who enemy?

I know Karadzic mentioned the "extermination of the Muslim people" because I've seen it with my own eyes. He said, "You are leading Bosnia down the path of Croatia and Slovenia, and you taking this country to hell and we may very well see the extermination of the Muslim people!"

What he meant is not what are You telling but the fact is without NATO help Muslims would not be able to defend from army of Bosnian Serbs.

I'll not go into past but if You are talking about Balkan problems You can not bypass it so if You want to understand "why" take a good books and study last five hundreds or so years of history of Balkan. Then and just then You going to understand some things and then and just then You going to be good enough to opposite my statements.

"Ethnic cleansing" was borne out of all this. These are the facts.

I told You where ethnic cleaning happen but You do not listen to me.

The war, in my perception, was sparked by the political and territorial ambitions of the political leaders of each nationality. The rank and file, ordinary members of society really didn't have any problems with each other. Kind of makes you wish Tito is still around eh?

I am glad when I see that there is people who can see farther then usually.

My best friend is Muslim and We understand each other well. We love our nations and our patriotic feelings are not in question but We know the biggest illusion of that war.

The people, regardless if they were Serbs, Croatians, Muslims or else, thought that war happen because of them and for their goodness. Politicians made them to think like they are in danger of the other side but the fact is they, ordinary people, were manipulated and used for "higher" goals...

What a sad end of one beautiful country.

Here my part in this discussion is over since I don't want to discuss this forever. We Serbs are where We are and can not believe what happen but We can not escape from our skin so We will as many times in past wait for moment of true and just Turks know how long We can wait.

Thanks to all who are open minded and not making quick conclusions as We are living in dangerous times. Actually analyzing it I think that We humans are still where We were thousand of years (or so) ago since it seems that We never learn from our mistakes and instead of making this world better We are making it more uglier. Instead of uniting and developing science for our goodness We are separating and developing weapons for mass destruction.

However nothing will change my love toward my country even if We makes mistakes as everyone else do, and I'll be ready for next call of my mother and nation to defend it.

Until then, farewell.

Patriot

Edited March 18, 2004 by Patriot+SD

[Serbian-Commando]

One question for all American? No offense,but are you nuts? I mean,do you really think that Serbs are bad guys and all the rest are good?

Tell you what...In that war in ex-YU everybody was guilty as Serbs but only Serbs have to paid?Now,I'm asking you this...Why you invade Iraq?Saddam was treat to US?Ha ha ha,do you even know where Iraq is?

One more thing...How come when attack happened in Spain and USA your gov declare it as terorist act but when happened in Kosovo,where those stinky Albanians day by day,in front of eyes of your forces killed innocent CHILDS,thats not a terorism?Gimme a break !

And finally,you'll never catch Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic !Wanna know why?It's simple....in REPUBLIC OF SRPSKA there isn't ###### like Zoran Djindjic who sold Milosevic for money

Braco Srbi,neka vas Bog cuva i prati kud god isli,sta god cinili !

BOG CUVA SRBE !

[MWH_Hammer]

I served in Bosnia with 1st Armored Division, 2-68 Armor in Olovo, Bosnia in 1996. My take on it was that when Bosnia and Croatia decided to seperate they wanted territory that had a large Serbian population. No wonder the Serbs fought so viciously, hell I would if New Jersey wanted to break from the US and annex New York state also because there were a few New Jersey peeps living there.(lol)

Hey, ###### happens in war massacres are apart of it. No country is perfect but I agree that those directly responsible for massacring civilians should be punished.

The Balkans will always be a hot area. It is where the three civilizations meet (Christianity, Islam, Orthodoxy)..

As for the war with Iraq, I believe we did the right thing. He may not have been a direct threat but he was a thorn in our side that had to be dealt with. Kinda like the chechens. I just cant wait until the west transitions to Fuel Cells and other alternatives to oil.. The middle east and other oil producing countries will have it rough then. They might have to work for a living instead of funding terrorism or maybe they will all become suicide bombers and have a big suicide party in mecca.

[connie lingus]

About Kosovo? Well, the Albanians there were immigrants right? Kosovo had always been a Serbian territory. The Albanians came in from Albania, and they set up shop. Refusing to pay taxes, etc. etc. So no wonder the Serbs wanted them out! Imagine if hordes of Mexicans enter Texas openly, then set up their shops, slums, and businesses there, then refuse to pay State Taxes? What would the U.S. Government do?

Greetings!

I was talking to a Albanian who supports the KLA faction in Bosnia about violence in the Republic of Macedonia(former YUGO territory).

He stated that old maps from the Roman Empire shows that the old Albanian borders includes the area of the new Macedonia, and that gives them the right to move in and take it over!

With logic like that there is no reasoning with, only force is understood.

[connie lingus]

Greetings!

A very large facet of the media bias against Serbia, has to do with the tremendous immigration of muslims into France and Germany. The muslim influence on their politics is akin to the Jewish vote in New York.

The US policy has been a vain attempt to try to curry favor with Islam, by backing muslims in the Balkan region without regard for muslim war atrocities.

[Pyro_Monty]

The muslim influence on their politics is akin to the Jewish vote in New York.

A strong Muslim influence on French politics? Eh?

I ask that you share evidence, please.

[connie lingus]

Greetings!

@pyro

You, of course, will need more time and space to fully realize my point, however, this article shows the efforts France has made to massage islamic countries:

----------

2003 March 25 Tuesday

Amir Taheri On France's Arab Policy

In an enlightening essay Paris-based Iranian writer Amir Taheri traces France's Politique Arabe de France (PAF) Arab policy back to its initiator Charles de Gaulle as a way to counterbalance German and American power. Taheri argues that it is time for the French to reexamine the assumptions underlying a policy which is not providing net practical benefits to France.

One aim of PAF was, one must assume, the securing of a greater share for French goods in the Arab markets. But that has not happened. In most Arab countries France has been distanced as a trading partner by Germany, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan. In a sense PAF may have actually harmed French business prospects. There is a feeling in many Arab countries that doing business with France is always political rather than commercial, and that one must purchase French goods and services not because they are attractive but as part of a pay-off for French political support.

By attempting to prevent a US attack to overthrow Saddam Hussein's regime Jacques Chirac has been acting to protect what the French government sees as a valuable relationship with an Arab client state. But the problem with the French thinking is the assumption of the value in some of its relationships with Arab states. The French appear to want influence as an end in itself. The French are so desperate to have influence that they have lost sight of what rational self interests they should most try to protect.

France, no longer a first rank power, can develop special relationships only with states that are basically the left-overs that the United States has rejected. Any regime that is seen as a threat to US interests is available as sloppy seconds for France to cultivate. Long term French disdain for America enhances the appeal of cultivating relationships with Arab countries that the United States sees as enemies. Therefore the French elite disdain and resentment toward the US combines with the desire to find states in which the French government can exercise some influence and results in French policies which oppose US interests in a knee-jerk fashion.

As Taheri argues it is not clear that the PAF policy has provided a net benefit to the French even if one uses a narrow economic definition of French interests. If one widens the scope of interests that are considered then the costs to the West as a whole seem clearly to outweigh the benefits that have accrued to some French commercial interests. The biggest area in which French policy operates in ways contrary to the needs of the security of the West is in nuclear proliferation. French policy, like Russian policy, acts to promote nuclear proliferation. Nuclear proliferation is the greatest threat to Western Civilization because it will inevitably lead to the possession of nuclear weapons by shadowy groups which are not deterrable.

[Pyro_Monty]

Three points/questions:

1. That article was a heap of nonsense.

2. I wouldn't mind seeing your source for that article.

Edit - Nevermind, it was exactly where I expected it to be. *Sigh* I guess that explains Point #1.

3.

this article shows the efforts France has made to massage islamic countries

What's wrong with that?

Oh and a fourth point would be:

4. If this becomes too political, I'd be happy to continue this discussion via PM.

[connie lingus]

Greetings!

Pyro, you asked for proof of how influential islam is in France's politics, and I gave just one viewpoint from a well respected Iranian writer-analyst who works in Paris and covers French and Islamic policy issues.

He has written 10 books on this subject.

Amir Taheri's profile:

http://www.benadorassociates.com/taheri.php

Amir Taheri's most recent essay on France's Arab policies:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comm...aheri031903.asp

I find that in for example--- India, who has a large muslim population, it is sometimes better to use insiders like B. Raman, to find out their views on a matter before making an opinion.

I don't expect you to agree, but to call this man "nonsense" without stating your proofs is not very fair.