SA 58 Carbine

[Xitter 0]

Well it's my first post on this forum so I say Hello to you all. Secondly I'd like to ask you to take a look at my "product" in 3DSMax since I've been sneaking around admiring the great works of the members of GR comunity for some time until I finally decided to make someting by myself. Please I've never been doing anything, not even a box, in 3DSMax so my model may look a bit crappy compared to those all around. I'd like to ask you some questions about modelling too, but let the pictures do the talking first. It's SA 58 Carbine just about 2000 plygons:

Now some questions.

1. Let's say thet I am making a barrel for a gun. I use nGon or cylinder then I convert it to an editable mesh and I do some modelling. But when I cut in the object (delete the face polygon f.ex. I end-up with a hole, whitch is ok. But only way I know how to recreate the plygon I cut in the past is to click POLYGON->CREATE and selecting verticles one by one until the poly is creted. Which I believe is very time consuming and sometimes even impossible. Could you tell my how to do this efficiently or a link will do nicely as well.

2. Another very anoying thing is that I don't know how to do following. Imagine a box and a nGnon f.ex. No I put the end of nGon in the box (making a barrel). Both are editable mashes and I'd like to "do something" that would create a verticle map, or outline in the place where the nGon cuts through the box polygon similar to the nGon sides. It's hard to explain, but I guess you can imagine it. Then I'd like to delete the part that is in under the surface effectively ending up with box with nGon which I could tune as an object. The main thing I try to achieve is the verticle map, since I'm stil quite unable to make something like it with divide, which is in my opinion inefficient in this way too.

3. My most painful problem is that when I crete something and I do BOLEAN extrusion that it works only as long as it's not converted into an editable mesh. After that when I try to do something like that I end Up with strangly collapsed and deformed object. I understand it, but is there a way to avoid this, safe the way I redo the whole obejct and only after I am finished with it I convert it and then only pray that I'd done everything and I won't have to touch it again.

[Thumper1518 62]

Two things:

One, you should post this in our own thread. This is swartzs' thread. You pose several questions that will cause a lot of folks to answer you. Also, it will be easier for you to track your own thread for responses you are looking for. I'm not chastising, just offering a suggestion since you are new to posting.

Two, as a DSA fan and modeler (my 762mm Mod has several DSA's in it) I can state with authority that you have an excellent model there. I would only suggest that you save some of the poly's from certain details and let the textures do the work. You could save about 200 or more polys on those details (the screw between the upper and lower receiver, the holes in the muzzle brake, the fluting on the magazine, the front site post/gas return assembly). Looks good!

[Pyro_Monty 0]

Split posts out from Swartsz's thread.

[larocket83 0]

That looks awesome. Great job on your first model.

[Xitter 0]

Ooops. I din't mean to compete or mess with swartsz own models I assure you. I didn't wont to make a new thread for the model was my first so I added it to "My First..." I'd like to appologize it won't happen again

>Thumper1518:

Thank you. I've never thought that somebody will say about it something like "a good model" or something. As for polys... Your absolutely right, I watched shwarz work carefully, there are a lot of them which are not neded entirely as I see. A good texture will do the same work or even better. Only I need to learn how to prepare the model for that But that's something I am gonna do in near future, I have no idea how complex or difficult it is yet. Now I plan to do at least 2 more guns, simply practice. I learned that there are some weapon making video tutorials so I'll download them as soon as possible.

I only hope that someone will answer my questions I posted since it's real pain... Or point me, I am prepared to learn more.

Perhaps some day, soon I hope, I'll be able to contribute to some MOD. I gotta tell you I've been playing GR just for a few months now but this game is so addictive.

[larocket83 0]

for question 1, patch hole works sometimes. But other times it just deforms the object. Another way is to keep whatever you used to cut the hole and hide it when you are finished. If you ever need to fix the hole, boolean union. Thats what i do anyway. Hope that helps some.

Edited January 28, 2004 by larocket83

[dagger 0]

looking good

[Thumper1518 62]

Re: Question 3 -

I think you are trying to describe extruding faces on polygons/shapes. It is easier to create the initial polygon, extrude it to a 3d object, convert to editable mesh, select "face", and extrude the face. Earl has an excellent tutorial on his website that describes that process, and Pain made some video tutorials that are excellent starting points. Personally, I only use boolean to make holes or cut out parts from objects.

Like everything, master the basics before you attempt to master the complex. You have an great start. It shows that you can create what you conceptualize in 3d model form, align it, and put it together into a substantial piece. Most of the best modelers out there follow the KISS principle first, then go for the "wow."

[Xitter 0]

to Thumper1518>

Thanks a lot for valuable recommendation I'll go to Ear's tutorials at once. Meanwhile this is how the weapon looks like after applying really only texture I have. Cut from the side image I used for modelling.

[Thumper1518 62]

The texturing on the barrel needs to be something even. The stock looks great. In photoshop, dull the reflection a little bit to make it less shiny. The handle/grip looks like the texture needs to be re-applied. The receiver, front guard and such all look very good. The magazine is also well-done. Post pics of the weapon from different angles and try to keep the pics no wider than 600 pixels for viewing ease. That way we can critique the weapon texturing more thoroughly.

Source pics: go to DSA's website (www.dsarms.com), there are great pics all over it. You'll need to cut/paste your textures together from several of the images, since no single picture is good for an entire weapon texturing. You can also Google search or check Vollmer's (www.fjvollmer.com) for DSA's.

[Stewy 0]

Wow, with a slightly longer barrel you could make an SLR as well

[Xitter 0]

Been bussy today and although I'am still wrestling with Max oftenly I finally put together following: It's SR-25 (I couldn't resist this beast since I found so nice picture of this rifle).

Concerning the model; it's not finished, there're parts missing. Also I smoothed some parts, but only a few. Final version will be much much looking, hpefuly covered with decent textures . Unfortunately RIS is killing my count -> around 2400. Without RIS I'd on 1100 at best. I hate to remove it.... Well let's see the pictures.

An again, any suggestions are most welcome.

[dagger 0]

Looking good

[Thumper1518 62]

You can use texturing to get past the poly-penalty of RIS systems. Also, the magazine in the SR-25 is straight down, not angled or curved. The receiver and mag well are narrower, with the receiver widened trapezoidally around the bolt and recoil buffer tube (In line with the barrel heading to the rear of the weapon). The mag could be a touch wider.

As usual, you are building outstanding models. Very good work.

[Lancer 1]

The fore end/hand guard on the 58 is upside down. The slots should be at the top.

[Xitter 0]

Thanks for your support and feedback. Thanks a lot!. Especialy to you Thumper. The model is currently being finished and polished, at least the best my skills allow me . This gun is sort of funy sice it seems that every piece on the internet has a different sights,scope... everything. So it's hard to stick to one piece, finally the friend of mine volunteered to skin it, he can surely do better than me. I hope I'll be able to add a bipod and then I post the pictures, with the picture that spelled my doom over this rifle.

Some questions.

1.) This will sound silly but I'll ask anyways... How much do I need to know to skin and edit materials in PS ... Well looking at the lines, it really is silly question, but I mean is it very very very difficult and time consuming? I'd like to know, before I get to it (soner or later I will that's for sure) Prehaps an experince of yours would be the best answer.

2.) Still I can't get my triangles into right shading positions, grrrrrrrrrrrr....

3.) I definitely plan to spend, during my 3D intesive modelling, time with learning how to import, prepare the models for games like GR and of course the engines like UT, UT2003. There're tutorials from mister Paine as I found out, should I download these? Any other "must have"?

4.) This puzzles me the most. Pain's tutorials are based on Mesh modelling. I somehow don't get it, why to model something using mesh objects, since they have so limited options,modifiers you can apply? Why not to model it as a Editable Polygon and then convert it to Editable Mesh? For example... If I slice a plane in Ed.Mesh I get, everytime, like 6 more verticles which are entirely unnecessary, that doesn't happen with Ed.Polly. But maybe it's just a glitch... But the working with Ed.Polys is a pleasure compared to Ed.Meshes.

[Thumper1518 62]

Whether you work in editable meshed or polys is up to you. I work in meshes since most changes I find I need to make are based directly in the x, y, or z axis and related to some function of the extruded poly in that sense.

As far as making textures in Adobe Photoshop, it's more a matter of taste, with experience and creativity of course. My first few model textures were side-view images of the weapon fitted as a whole to an .rsb-type file size. As time went by and I recognized which parts of a weapon translate into which major objects in 3dsM, I learned to cut up the pictures, and even to use several different picture parts put together into the final texture which is converted into the .rsb. Others, like Earl, Snowfella, and the rest who are more capable than I am in PS and texturing, make wrappable textures that they wrap around the 3-D objects from their .rsb images.

I got started with Pain's tutorials on video. They demonstrated an easy way to make a model in 3dsMax, texture it, size it, and export it into the game. There are five videos in all, each on @WAR's website somewhere.

Hope that helps. Keep it up. I look forward to that SR-25 textured.

[Xitter 0]

Thanks again Thumper, I've not been able to work on my SR-25 some time. Now, here's my almost final model. Scoped, silenced with my first bipod try Well I feel a bit more confident and somehow I found out that the best I can model something is to take reference pictures and to "take the gun apart" on the paper. It works great for me. Since I usually ran into some really time consuming troubles while making it "on the fly". Still I didn't touch skining the model, the friend of mine "volunteered" to do it while I learn to work with it. Well a lot of work to do ahead since I'll have to learn to put it in the right position etc... As beeing a WW2 fan too, aircrafs you know, I'am going to try to model some.... in the futre, but there are canopies which are made of plexi, swithches, gauges and thing called "alpha cut" or somtehing like that which I do not understand yet. But back to my SR-25, tak a look and let me know what do you think.

Q: As you can see the handle and body connection points are somehow "unclean". I was unable to retriangulate it properly. Is it a big problem? In terms of final look I mean.

Perhaps it would be better to rename this thread to something more fitting since I do not plan to work on the same SA 58 carbine right now.

[Aces21 0]

Looks really good

Keep up the good work

edit: looking back at the picture the mag looks just a touch wide. It might be the angle of picture or it might just be me so before you touch it you should listen to someone else that knows more about the gun.

Edited February 11, 2004 by Aces21

[Xitter 0]

The magazine... personally I don't know if it's 100% correct since the pictures I have can't tell me exactly how wide and thick... it should be. And when they do I've several different looking magazines. This weapon have so many variants. So I don't know, considering that it fires 7.62x51mm rounds the magazine should be a bit bulkier is my guess. But thanks anyways I'll look at it.

[Thumper1518 62]

Q: As you can see the handle and body connection points are somehow "unclean". I was unable to retriangulate it properly. Is it a big problem? In terms of final look I mean. 

I don't see what you mean by "unclean" and if you get to handle any SR or AR wepapons, you will notice that though things line up, none of them is a perfect flush match to the other part. For modeling, it translates into edges and lines at the joints (like between a stock and receiver) and is natural. Texturing does the most work, and will make or break a model in the long run. We'd all look silly running around with stark white weapons in MP games.

You are halfway there, that model is great. Do not widen the magazine. The SR-25's are no wider than their 5.56 cousins, the rounds just stagger differently in the magazines, which hold less 7.62 rounds for the same space. You should practice texturing and once you get used to it, it is easy, just time-consuming. The more pieces you have to texture, the longer it takes. The steps are simple, just repeating them over and over gets monotonous (sp?). You've got a real beauty there.

Edited February 11, 2004 by Thumper1518