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Advanced Sniper System


Chems
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Chems,

I did my playing around in 1000 yard competition. For the most part, we had two camps. The lighter and fast as heck crowd (6.5x284, etc.) and the not quite as fast but heavy crowd (300 Winchester Magnum, 300 Weatherby, 7mm Remington, etc.)

I've always been in the second camp for one reason; consistancy. On a calm day, it is very hard to beat the fast as heck cartridges. They get down range very quickly and honestly are not as prone to human error because of it.

The problem is, there are very few calm days. Wind conditions almost always exist at some point during the bullets' 1.5 to 2 second period of flight. We normally watched conditions at 400 yards more than any other. Your bullet is starting to move to it's highest point of flight (Actually around 600 yards at that range) and is most impacted by conditions there. Lighter bullets move more in the wind. Wind conditions and even direction can change several times at 1000 yards (nearly 2/3rds of a mile.) You have to pick the privailing condition and shoot past it.

On windy days, the 30 caliber magnums ruled the day. The 220 grain bullet could take quite a bit of conditions before it became a problem. Heavy bullets almost always won the aggregates for the year.

As stated by another person above, the average non-trained hunter can hit a target at 200 yards with a high powered rifle using optics. The bullet does not move much. The magic numbers start past around 300.

The 5.56 can be effectively used out to around 400 yards but can be accurate much further. The issue is energy remaining. The 5.56 does most of it's damage by fragmentation. Something it won't do past 200 yards anyway. I've killed rodents (groundhogs) with my accurized AR15 out just past 425 yards. The 5.56 can be a great counter sniper / urban round out to about 300 +. 300 yards is longer than most folks think.

With regard to rain, I have shot in it. I did notice something. The impact of my first couple rounds at 1000 yards was effectively the same location as when it was not raining. This was with no optical adjustment between rain and no rain. The running concensus is, despite rumor, rain has no measurable effect on bullet trajectory.

Heat (mirage) and lighting conditions play a big part. Mirage occurs when a combination of heat/moisture exist to such an extent that the optical picture appears to move like water. There are benefits but you have to be able to read them. Mirage tends to move with the wind and vibrates at a certain speed based upon wind speed. Most snipers are trained to use mirage to determine wind direction and speed. If serious mirage is present, you have to back optical magnification down. Magnifying mirage just make mirage look worse. You have to back down magnification until it appears somewhat calm down the optics.

Lighting conditions play a part due to depth perception. If a cloud happens to pass over your target area at that distance, it can cause your perception of depth to change. This normally causes the bullet to hit either high at 12 oclock or low at six oclock. It changes bullet impact by as much as a foot at 1000 yards.

I enjoy doing it as there is a true science to all of this. It's quite a bit of fun.

Edited by 300Mag
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You see now to me id love to take all that in to account in game, but then i must just have a less rambo style nature. What does it feel like 300mag then when with wind other variables when you hit that bulls eye at 400 yards? must be great. Thanks for that post was really intresting. But seen as you say the fun only starts beyond 300 yards then does that mean that the maps are to small in GR to effect the bullet, or at least your view is with the fog?

Think you might be right FPWV is needed for GR2.

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At most GR ranges, bullet drop would be fairly small with just about any caliber. Besides, most true snipers zero their scopes at further ranges. They are not doing it for 100 yard shots, like you would find most often with Law Enforcement/SWAT types. Most snipers that I've talked to zero their weapons between 300 and 600 yards. This would mean that any shot taken at less than that would have the bullet impacting high, not low. If they want to get serious in GR2 (I hope they do), they should have a firing range that allows for the zero to be achieved before actual combat conditions exist. That way, you could zero your weapon at a specific distance and then have to calculate bullet drop, wind, etc. accordingly in the field. That would rock.

To answer your question, yes, it does feel great. We all load our own ammunition and some of us make our own rifles (true action, chamber barrel, etc.) The idea of being able to do all this and get it to work at 1000 yards is facinating to me and a great deal of fun. One of our favorite things to do is "bust pigeons" (clay pigeons) at 1000 yards. They are about 4 inches wide. We place several on a hillside and take shots at them. After a couple sighters, We can normally hit them most of the time. It's a great feeling. These rifles are capable of less than 5 inch groups for five shots at that distance.

Edited by 300Mag
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Not sure if this should go here...but in order to prevent a separate topic for something that at least relates to the subject matter...

I think at least they should borrow the way you snipe in Splinter Cell...it isn't very technical...but its a nice effect...

Basically (for those that might not have seen it) when you're zoomed in...the reticle shifts around...simulating you breathing and not holding it still...then when you've got the cross hairs in the ballpark...you hold a button...to simulate holding your breath...and steady the crosshairs...it only last for a few seconds before it resets...and then you basically have to re-aim if you haven't taken the shot...

Works very nice.

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Once I saw that 300mag had posted here I almost didn't myself. I'm going to anyway just because. If I repeat something that someone else has already said please forgive me.

What I have seen so far is talk about bullet drop, windage and etc... What about impact? Think of this if you will. A kill shot for snipers does not always equate to death. If you incapacitate or render your target otherwise inoperable this is often referred to as a "soft kill" In that sense, consider if you will the effect of a .308 round on the human body. Even if a non vital area is hit the shock of impact and the resulting damage is going to be enough to take a target out of the fight if you will. Quite simply, a snipers intended target, when it's a person, is going to be in so much pain that return fire from this target is going to be a non issue. What needs to be improved in this area are things like this. Or, when a sniper takes a head shot at close, close for the sniper being anything say under 200m, range the target is killed. Not wounded and giving return fire.

Arguably if a tango is hit with a .50 or .338 round death should be the result. However time between shots should be greatly increased to compensate for the extreme power of these rifles.

All of this should be, in my view, a moot point however if such problems as, tango's shooting you through, walls, hills or their own backs are not corrected. It's hard to strive for realism in a game where there is none. If these things remain then stabilization times for all sniper rifles should be adjusted in my view. Even the playing field just a bit.

I think however it would be a mistake to start getting into too much detail when it comes to sniping in GR2. Consider that for just a moment if you include all the little details that snipers train on and for every day, with GR maps what they are and all the other variables, snipers working under this new format in GR2 would potentially only get one or two kills max before their effectivness was neutralized. How much fun is that going to be? That would then be everyone's complaint. "It's too hard" or "It's too complicated".

Yes changes need to be made but I hope they don't go over board with it.

Stout Hearts

=UE=Warhawk

Edited by warhawk
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  • 2 weeks later...

I also agree on a Drop & Wind Draging of a bullet !

Even the sway of the gun too should also be add,

maybe add a button in too hold breathe before you shoot too get a better shot. Not too sure about this but some of the scopes have a distance control on the scope too get the right distance.

But i guess in short the scopes look real but maybe the more advance one's well have controls on the scope too make it a adjusting shot!

But i would also love too see is more a better caummo for the sniper!

i mean somthing that can really blind into the game! where maybe we need infored too see there heat in the snow! way Up top on a large hill hiding!

anyways i agree with a more advance way of snipering!

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I appreciate what you guys are saying but I hope they don't do it. Not everyone who plays the game as a sniper is a math whiz and has all the tools and education to do the job in the first place. Having to put that much work into it will kill the enjoyment for some of the more leisure players. Thereby hurting the game's chances of sucess.

Stout Hearts

=UE=Warhawk

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have realized after many hours, that my wishes may be un attainable, but i will settle for better bullet drop, realstic bullet times, eg a delay on long shots between firing and impact. I realized that all though the tracer goes at diff speeds it dont really effect the actually bullet. If this was better implemented then it would make sniping harder, diffrent calibures would make a diffrence, and some wind. Thats all i ask. And a FPW. ;)

I mean if ya wanna do the rest fine by me, my maths is ready i think.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I do agree that the the sniper system now is way too basic and I would like to see a new inovative sniper system. However, I think making it too realistic will just take the over all fun away from the game. I dont like the idea of having to adjust scopes and things like that because of the fact that you might see a guy for a couple of seconds and you have to waist your time adjusting crap. Maybe something where at certain ranges you just should aim higher and aim farther left or right depending on the wind might be good. I do not like the idea of "a hold your breath". What the hell for? I think they should give all the guns recoil that is visible when shooting the gun and not just on the reticle. Also, give the guns a little sway while standing and none while prone. Give the snipers something inovative but fun, too much can take away fun.

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yeah intresting points, but you have to understand snipers are top marks men, they dont need to zero in for a snap shot really, they just need to for the real long accurate shots, at least thats my understanding thats only partially true. But the thing Is a sniper is tool, the whole mind set of a sniper is that they are there and ready when someone comes so these snap shots dont have to be taken. But I like the holding of breath ever played splinter cell?? That had it effectivly implemented.

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I never did play too much Splinter Cell, so I'm not too familiar with that holding the breath concept. I'm just afraid that adding in too much stuff that isnt too necesary for a video game might kill the gameplay experience or the fun for most people that havent been trained to snipe. With that said, I still would like a little bit more than just point and shoot not just for sniping but for all guns. Give every gun its own visible recoil (not just the reticle, but like they did on RS3 but not so much where you cant see the target. see my post about "Check out my idea for GR2") and distinct tecnique of use. I think sniping should be about more about timing, steadiness (right now, you can be standing up and have the reticle sit perfectly still not allowing for any control by user other than placing them in the correct spot) and patience, but still allowing the player to take reasonable shots when they suddenly see a target or a target suddenly sees them. The controls need to be intuitive yet precise and distinct to each gun.

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I've only read about 50% of the posts on this thread so If I'm repeating anything I appologies. I like alot of the idea's that have been mentioned especialy holding breath & bipods that steady the shot etc. however personally I think taking the realisim much further could kill any advantage of snipers & eventualy the soul of GR.

The Main problem at the moment is map size, this causes a couple of problems. The maps are to small for any distance where wind & gravity would have much of an effect. Add to that the mist which restricts vision further, your lucky to get a clear shot for more than 200m. At this distance a rifle (OICW/SA80/M4) is very accurate & has a quicker recoil/reload etc. so a rifleman/demo has an advantage already. If a sniper had to work out wind etc. they would be seriously disadvantaged.

there are a few maps that do have good sniper potential but only a few so the maps would need to be huge to really give snipers a better advantage which could then have more realism added to even it up.

Snipers in the Real world I belive spend a long time getting to a preplanned position, stay there along time being undetected before they risk there first shot & advertising there presence. If you had to do this I feel it would spoil the pace of GR. GR at the moment has the game play balance just about right, fast but stealthy tactical & skillfull etc. can't fault it realy & although I'd love more realism I don't want the pace of game changed.

I hope that made sense :sheep:

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I agree with everything you two have said, I see that some things might kill off the GR spirit. But if you have bigger maps, you actually have an advantage been a sniper rather than a disadvantage, but it needs to be harder to hit someone at long range, breathing bipods and better drop and wind would be great for me even on a small scale.

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I believe there are going to be 3 things that would make sniping better, while not slowing gameplay too much. Many already have been listed, but I will just reitterate them.

*bigger maps. this will not only make snipers more useful, but also make available more enemies. In GR it is quite easy to kill all the tangos on the map, but this is not true in real life. Spec-Ops teams in real life often must choose their battles as they are surronded by overwhelming numbers of tangos. If you had to pick and choose battles, snipers could become more useful just as they can precisly choose their kill compared to the other classes.

*Splinter Cell like breathing-makes sniping more skillful, but not overly complicated. This of course would have to be balanced by making all the other weapons less accurate, but this would be good as it would prolong firefights and not be a "who sees who first, wins" kind of game.

*working camo- as of now you could play GR in an orange costume with a bullseye on it and do the same as if you actually wore camo. Maybe design the engine to compare the colors (and shape i.e. gullie suit) of your camo with the your surrondings to decide how easily the a.i. can see you. This alone would give snipers wearing gullie suits advantages over the standard unit. Also, the ai was fixed to some degree that when fired upon and it does not see the enemy, it will randomly "spray and pray" in that direction, but I often find they are a little too accurate in guessing my location. They should start off only knowing generally where you are compared to them (like front, back, left, right), but after each successive shot be able to pinpoint your location to a closer degree.

To top all this (though this is more of a game play factor), perhaps having more numerous enemy snipers on all the maps would improve the game. Remember Rogue Spear mission 7( I think it was 7. It was the one where you were in a ruined city and had to rescue some UN guys that had crashed in a helicopter) The sniper in the church tower killed me at least 6 times before I realized were he was. I was terrified to cross that street. I never had this experience in GR as the few "snipers" it has are not well hidden and often are standing up. I want to be afraid in GR2. :unsure:

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Once again I agree totally with everypoint! :yes: If what you said was implemented in GR2 i would die happy. Lets hope RSE has a look at this thread cause its really very well thought out.

As for been scared, get Op Stabalise, in 1 mission you get pinned down by a guilled sniper, I was scared I had to hide between rail tracks popping up so he would take a shot so I could move my other sniper in. But I couldnt find him, and eventually saw a muzzel flash erupt from a bush 12 feet away abouts, aimed at my pinned down men, so eventually I killed him from about 2 feet. I still couldnt see him when I was right on top of him. As for RS I never played it :( but Medal of Honour had some really good ones. Not that that is my type of game. But sniping on that was harder.

Working camo would be great. And the spray and pray idea would be cool, I think its slightly implemented in GR but as you say about 5 rounds before they snipe you in the head. Damn AI!

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As for been scared, get Op Stabalise, in 1 mission you get pinned down by a guilled sniper, I was scared I had to hide between rail tracks popping up so he would take a shot so I could move my other sniper in.

Yea, that was a good mission. The first time I played it through, though, I think my team somehow saw him and took him out. But you are right. There are a few modded missions in GR that have some of what I am looking for, but it would be nice to have it come from the standard GR(2) as well, as then everyone will be able to experience the rush. I guess Ubi needs to learn from the modders...

Medal of Honour

I don't know what made me think of this, and it really has nothing to do with anything, but a while back I decided to try an experiment with my teachers. When I wrote papers, I began to spell words with the (old) English spelling (i.e. "colour" instead of "color" or "centre" instead of "center") I averaged slightly higher grades. It was weird.

Edited by j-man
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lol yup us posh brits hey, I write normally colour I think, not color and honour as you saw, I acheived double A in my english just incase you want to know. Not sure they understood IIRC thou at the start of some answers otherwise I would have got an A* :rofl:

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I like what i-man said about "who sees who first, wins". I agree with that statement. Thats how it is most of the time, no matter what gun you have. In essence it doesnt really matter what gun you have (too often), just so long as you see the enemy first. I think depending on what gun you have should play a big part in putting your self into position to use it properly. As of right now there are way too many guns that you can just point and shoot no matter how far away the target might be. Also, I do agree that the size of the maps plays a part in this factor as well.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I like what i-man said about "who sees who first, wins". I agree with that statement. Thats how it is most of the time, no matter what gun you have. In essence it doesnt really matter what gun you have (too often), just so long as you see the enemy first. I think depending on what gun you have should play a big part in putting your self into position to use it properly. As of right now there are way too many guns that you can just point and shoot no matter how far away the target might be. Also, I do agree that the size of the maps plays a part in this factor as well.

Yeah. I always use Burst or auto, even though it gives me a disadvantage, just so that that doesn't happen.

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