ReconSnake 0 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Full Story Here's one of the realities of being in an elite force you don't hear about. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 0 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Well, that is very distrubing. But if it was standard procedure, the crew cant be in tthe wrong. Aussie SAS have trained the Kopusses in the past, but ended it just before east timor, and began fighting their trainees in the jungle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ZJJ 74 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Talking with xG5Kdo right now. He knew all the guys. My thoughts and prayers to those families and friends. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zebb 7 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I cant believe that the pilot couldnt have lost a bit more height to give them a better chance of survival before cutting them free, although its supposed to be an SOP it sounds like a very desperate measure ?... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Parabellum 12 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 That sucks for the men who were cut loose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Specter 0 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Yeah, it seems to me that if it was any kind of pilot at all, and I'm assuming they were, as they kept it in the air, that they should have been able to lose some altitude, and saved their lives instead of just cutting the rope on 8 good men. In the time it took to cut that rope, he could have dropped enough to give them a decent shot at surviving, even busted up, but alive. Just my take on it. I could be way off base here. But if I was the CO, I would be running the pilots and that bird through the freakin' ringer 7 ways to Sunday, and to hell and back to find out exactly why they killed 8 of my men. And God help them if I found out it wasnt necessary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ReconSnake 0 Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 They were following SOP. Those 8 guys knew it, the airframe crew knew it - and they did what they were trained to do. That doesn't make it any easier to like, but those are the realities of elite force work. A lot of methods are high-risk - you train over and over and over and take every precaution in hopes of reducing the risks but it does not eliminate them. These guys lost their lives presumably doing a job they loved, and I'm sure they are tossing down their challenge coins in the big NCO club in the sky as we sit here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Specter 0 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 @RS, You're right. But reading the article, it just seems really wrong. Any loss of a good man's life is wrong, but something about that just doesn't seem kosher. I mean they are up in the air for a period of time and didnt see this coming? And the way it reads, it sounds like they made cutting them loose the first option. I know the risks of Elite Force work as well as you do bro, and I'm absolutely in agreement with you about those 8 fine men...but.... But then, we will never know what really happened. My thoughts and prayers to the families and friends of those 8 fine individuals, and especially to xG5Kdo, you have my sympathies bro. Semper Fi. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zebb 7 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I'm not arguing about the SOP RS, but most of us here know how things like this go in the RW and my opinion is that any of the special aircrews i've flown with would do their damndest to give the guys on the rope the best chace possible before having to cut them loose, and i dont think that cutting the rope at 180 metres over the sea in full kit is the best chance they had, jmo... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Specter 0 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I'm not arguing about the SOP RS, but most of us here know how things like this go in the RW and my opinion is that any of the special aircrews i've flown with would do their damndest to give the guys on the rope the best chace possible before having to cut them loose, and i dont think that cutting the rope at 180 metres over the sea in full kit is the best chance they had, jmo... Amen bro. Amen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ReconSnake 0 Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 I know the aircrew would do everything possible too, that's exactly why I won't second-guess their actions based on second-hand reporting of the circumstances. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zebb 7 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I've read a few reports about this incident now RS and more than one of them questions the procedures carried out when the aircrew cut the rope, now i'm not second guessing their actions either i'm just voicing my own opinion based on my experience of British and American aircrews, and in my opinion i dont believe that a UK or US crew would have done the same thing from that height without giving the guys on the rope the best possible chance for survival, and anyway you look at it being dropped from a moving helicopter at 180 metres (or more according to some reports) in full kit, roped together into the sea is a recipe for disaster, as i said, jmo. http://english.eastday.com/epublish/gb/pap...3/hwz163108.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ReconSnake 0 Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 I would wait til I had read a AAR before I believed myself to have the facts. That newspaper article you cited doesn't say anything new other than the fact that these guys' remains were recovered. I honor their sacrifice, but they knew the risk. And I honor the fact that they proceeded in spite of it. An army spokesman in Lhokseumawe, Colonel Yani Basuki, said the soldiers were conducting a final practice for the exercise that involved their being flown to a location while suspended below the helicopter by harnesses attached to a rope. They would then be lowered to the ground. But during the exercise a blast of wind rocked the Bell helicopter, making it highly unstable, and the crew on board had had no option but to cut the rope to which the men were attached. He (Colonel Yani Basuki) said that cutting the rope was "normal operating procedure" and had been done to save the lives of those on board the chopper, and the aircraft itself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zebb 7 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I honor their sacrifice, but they knew the risk. And I honor the fact that they proceeded in spite of it. I never questioned the integrity of the guys left hanging in the breeze, everyone knows the risk involved when you take on operational tasks such as these but they carried on none the less and sadly paid the ultimate price. I am not going to carry on with this debate because it is purely one of opposite views, and until the enquiry has been carried out no-one will really know what happened, even then i suspect we will be told only what they want people to know. I have said all i wanted to on the subject.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ReconSnake 0 Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 Fair enough, I feel the same way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Viper 0 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 it's really a horible disision for the aircrew to have to make - cut the rope and kill 8 poeple or leave the rope and kill 12 plus destroy the aircraft. I'm not sure if a US aircrew could have tried harder to save the men on the ropes, my guess is that even though that procedure is US SOP as well that a US aircrew would put thier own lives on the line to save the men on the ropes. CLARK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jester 0 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 For those of you with aspirations of joining the military, this is another good point to be made. I'm glad RS raised the issue. Prior to 9/11 and the war on terrorism and the war in Iraq, there were certain jobs in the military that were just plain dangerous, even in peacetime. You can't spend any length of time doing things like flying NOE at night or jumping out of aircraft without knowing somebody that's died in training, or at the least gotten really messed up. Sure, the job's all glamorous and you get to see and do some cool stuff in peace or combat, but there's a price to pay for it. Even under ideal circumstances, there's always Murphy out there. Trust me from experience. I'm sure some of these other guys will echo that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zebb 7 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Good point Jester. As it happens because of this topic both RS and myself chatted on the PM, and i had said to RS that i had a lost quite a few friends because of training incidents, to which he agreed as the same thing had also happened to him. Training has to be as realistic as possible to be of any use when the time comes to put it into practice, unfortunately this means that people get killed in what appear to be fairly controlled circumstances, it doesnt make it any less painful and its a risk every member of the military accepts as part of their role, if you cant, then as Jester has said, maybe you need to reconsider your choice of career ?.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ReconSnake 0 Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 Well said. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xG5kdo 0 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Thank you all for your kind words. Our SF community, like any other in the world is a close knit community. We knew all of those who died. Three of them are pretty good friends of mine, the rest I've met/knew on various jobs. Is it turned out, the crew of the helo is well known as well. They're a professional experienced crew that has been flying us in and out of jobs in Aceh. The pilot, co-pilot, and crew chief are all experienced men with years under their belts. Jester is right. Murphy is always out there. The men that died have done STABO many many times before. On exercises and otherwise. They knew what they were doing. Just the day before, apparently, they did the exact same exercise and everything went like clockwork. Anyway, I just pop by real fast to say hello to everyone. Again, thank you for the kind words. And thank you ZJJ for bringing this board to my attention. Until next time, guys. Out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 0 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Hey I feel for ya man, knowing all those guys must be tough, Just on the subject of tradgety, keep an eye out for a post im going to make on the aniversary of the Bali bombings, which is this weekend. This was the pacifics september 11, and im sure xG5kdo knows what im talking about, being in the Indo army and a part of the indonesian community. I knew of people who lost friends and family in the disaster, but was lucky not to be directly effected. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xG5kdo 0 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 One last post before I go. Now that you mention the Bali bombing, it's a tragedy that we all regret. My condolences to all the victims and their families. Rest assured we are bringing those responsible to justice and working hard to ensure that such tragedies never happen again. The world is changing again my friends. Ever since President Bush's war on terror, these terrorists seem to be shifting their targeting reticles to 'alternative targets'. Unfortunately, our country happens to be the biggest one. After Bali, came a few little bombs, and another big one at the J.W. Marriott in Jakarta (as I'm sure alot of you have heard). The enemy, is Jemaah Islamiyah. Which is the Pacific's equivalent of Al-Qwacky. As you may know, we've managed to round up quite a few of these lot. We haven't gotten them all yet, but we're working You will be pleased to know that death sentences have been verdicted to all the main players. This was a great boost of morale to our people as it shows that we do not fear them, and I hope this can bring some consolation to the victims and families. We're now in this together, my friends. Until next time. Out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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