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#31 ToW-Angel

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 11:22 PM

I will also go on to say that updates to the A/C need to be updated automatically from 1 source and separately from a game update patch.
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#32 Pulaski

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 12:30 AM

So basically here is the options.

#1 Punkbuster
#2 Local only with GRin's checks in place.
#3 Community of server admins reviewing (could takes weeks for a verdict though) and a list of confirmed by them cheaters.

The community here as a whole i think would only accept #2 and ladders may accept #3 if they trust who is doing it.


GRIN..please take note, if you only want 150-200 people playing GR:AW on-line listen to the above post. The anti-cheat in GR:AW now is worthless, having server admins frap players is worthless, the files alone would be of great size and then you would have to view more then just one player. Which means even bigger files.

So #2 and #3 will never work long term and then only maybe for a very small group, which means 150-200 players. Building an anti-cheat like PB from the ground up would take how long? years? most likely. Looks like the only way to go is with #1.

When you talk about the "community here" you should note that as being and/or speaking of gr.net, not the GR community as a whole. The GR community is widespead and GR.net is only a small part. Thousands of GR players do not post here; they have their own community, example ladder community's/gaming community's.

Of the hundreds of people I know from [GR], most talk about anti-cheat, server files and replays. Clans/Gaming community's will not even touch the game without the above. Which means 150-200 players on-line.

Edited by Pulaski, 19 August 2006 - 12:32 AM.

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#33 ruggbutt

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 05:52 AM

I'd like to reiterate that global bans are bad, especially when the human element is taken out. If ya'll don't know about Witness being banned by a beta MD5 tool ask some of the old timers about it. He was unfairly banned and Tony Ray from PB had to straighten it out. The only thing is, Witness was well known in the community, ran The Rumble ladder and was an UBI mod forever. Because of who he was Tony Ray looked at the "evidence" and issued a statement that he was in fact not cheating. This after 2 month of Witness being called all kinds of names.

Having been one of the founding members who started the GR anti-cheat community I'd like to think that my experience says at the very least that I know of what I speak. Do not globally ban anyone on software or screenshots alone, and since Fraps is iffy you're better off just doing a server ban for the admins that talk to each other.

Unless you think you can live with yourselves by shutting someone out of the game that just might be innocent.

If ya'll wanna see how well we did our job, here's the link to the "Are you Banned?" section of our forums (this only relates to the BSR dedicated server), the ACC forums are separate and are private. Alot of the guys posting in there got caught smurfing when they were cheating, but our IP logger showed us who they really were. Several of them admit to what they did and saw nothing wrong with it......

Edited by ruggbutt, 27 September 2006 - 05:58 AM.


#34 ToW-Angel

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 06:17 AM

While I do agree to an extent, there is honestly not a better way to keep 1 cheater out of many servers.

The ban list can be maintained by a 3rd party who has no interest either way... In this case, GRiN or whomever they choose to have the responsibility.

However, if the Anti-Cheat finds an actual cheat itself, what should happen? They get to continue to play on any server they choose? Would you want them in your server if they were caught on someone elses?

There are two directions that can be taken. 1) if the anti-cheat system finds a legitimate cheat, it bans them and adds them to a master ban list and all bans are reviewed. 2) we hope that we, the community, are able to spot an actual cheat, we get as many screen shots as possible, any logs available and we question others who were in the server with them and vote on if that person was in fact cheating.

While one has no human input, the other does and both will make mistakes. We are not perfect either, and neither is the anti-cheat system.

While it was the case of a person who was not actually cheating... I'd rather be sorry about it than to let it go and someone continues to cheat.

I will have to say that is 1 exception in thousands, and by far not the normal case.

Master ban lists are good. But, I will agree to a point that maybe it should take human involvement to determine if a person is in fact cheating.

Now, here's an idea...

If a person is suspected of cheating, the anti-cheat system flags that player and put him on a 'watch-list'. And, if not found cheating, he/she is removed from the list entirely. If the person is in fact cheating, then the person gets added to the master ban list that the anti-cheat system checks to ensure that person is not able to enter any anti-cheat enabled server.

It still is a viable option to have a master ban list and the anti-cheat system should check the ban list to ensure that cheaters will not be able to enter a server with an enabled anti-cheat.

This would eliminate dispersion of a ban list that could be updated as much as hourly. I certainly would not want to check a website hourly to see if the ban list has been updated. So, in this sense, it will work very well if there was a repository for the master ban list that the Anti-Cheat system could check.
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#35 ruggbutt

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 12:08 PM

The ban list can be maintained by a 3rd party who has no interest either way.

No such animal. A third party who truly isn't part of the A/C community will be hosting the banlist as a favor to someone. And we still need an A/C that works. Punkbuster isn't 100% and how long has it been around? Are you willing to be personally responsible for branding someone a hacker based on software?

As I stated above, I have years of experience helping to put together an A/C community. Software based A/C is spotty at best and master ban lists should be on the master ban list. ;)

While I understand you stance on cheaters (as I am the same way) there is just too much that can go wrong basing a master ban list on A/C tools that are currently available for GRAW. The tools available to the community aren't good enuf to justify a master ban list. I know that's not something you want to hear, but the first time a situation occurs like the Witness debacle, you and anyone else who pushed hard for this will be crucified worse than the guy who was accused for cheating. I'll be one of the people leading the charge saying "I toldya so". Punksbusted's response to Witness was "Sometimes accidents happen". I'll bet Wit feels better. :wall: He completely stopped doing anything related to online gaming and this community lost an important member.

Ask SRS Undertaker or Zulater who have tons of experience with an A/C community and tools, they'll most likely tell you that the tools we had for GR are magnitudes better than what we have for GRAW.

Edited by ruggbutt, 27 September 2006 - 12:17 PM.


#36 ToW-Angel

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 02:09 PM

We are in agreement about the A/C not being good enough currently, that is for sure.

The only thing at the moment is that GRiN is paying attention to threads like this that are truly important.
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#37 ZJJ

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 05:22 PM

Excuse my ignorance up front as I don't have to deal with cheaters since I don't run a game server, but I'm trying to understand the situation here.

Basically, what I am reading is that people are advocating a master ban list where a person is banned from ALL servers if they caught cheating on ONE server. Do I understand this correctly?

If so, this is saying that people are not given the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. Personally, I would rather see a master list of people who have been caught cheating that an admin can reference to see if they are potentially habitual cheaters, but the ban is taken at the individual server level if the person is caught there.

Once again, I apologize if I did not understand this correctly.

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#38 ToW-Angel

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 05:37 PM

Basically, what I am reading is that people are advocating a master ban list where a person is banned from ALL servers if they caught cheating on ONE server. Do I understand this correctly?


Unfortunately, once a cheater always a cheater. Companies like PunkBuster do not give players a second chance. They learn the lesson when their computer is banned from playing any game that has an enabled anti-cheat.

I certainly do not want to give someone a second chance that was honestly caught cheating.

But, yes... you are correct.
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#39 ruggbutt

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 09:55 PM

Basically, what I am reading is that people are advocating a master ban list where a person is banned from ALL servers if they caught cheating on ONE server. Do I understand this correctly?

Yep, that's what they want. They want to trust a software A/C, when other kinds of A/C such as Punkbuster still aren't 100%.

If so, this is saying that people are not given the opportunity to learn from their mistakes.

That's where we disagree. If you are going to cheat then you're going to have to do it consciously and take several steps to do so. All the while that you're searching for hax, downloading, installing and testing your new cheat you have the opportunity to not jack around the people you'll be playing online with. Now if you can't change your mind during those four steps, then you don't deserve a second chance.

Read a couple of threads from our ban section in our forums. The guys who were caught cheating had their squaddies backing them, and their attitude was that cheating is ok as long as it's not in a match. Seriously ZJJ, take some time to read several of the larger threads in there. It's amazing at how they're just not sorry. I've had 2 death threats and several threats to have me hurt physically. One guy here in town begged me to meet him. People who cheat are ignorant and don't think they are responsible for their actions.

Edited by ruggbutt, 27 September 2006 - 09:59 PM.


#40 FI_FlimFlam

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 11:16 PM

ZJJ, let me also clarify some things for you.

They really are referencing 2 existing different ban lists but not really making a differentiation between the 2.

First the reference is the Punkbuster GLOBAL BAN list. To get on this list a cheater not only is caught cheating in game, but is using a cheat that is found to actively circumvent or prevent Punkbuster from operating properly. That is to say, the cheat prevents client screen shots for example. When a player lands on this list they are banned from all Punkbuster enabled games because PB uses a generated hash # based on the hardware configuration in the client's computer. PB uses that to keep them out of all the PB ENABLED servers. Not every server out there. Easily 95% of cheaters do not land on this list. PB just kicks them out of the server - only the ones with known cheats of PB circumvention are actually banned by PB by default.

List number 2 that is being referenced is a COMMUNITY BAN list that is maintained by Punksbusted. That members of the community share to keep cheaters caught by the use of Punkbuster and the admin configured extra checks. These checks are primarily based on 4 things, Default Punkbuster detections and kicks, game file integrity checks, CVAR checks (game settings checks like macro-like keybinds, gamma, POV/FOV, etc) and file checks for the existence of known cheat files. It's this list that people are hoping to emulate.

The second list is also the one that rugbutt is referencing about the Wittness scuffle.

At issue is the fact that with a shared ban list someone might land on it who is innocent and be banned from multiple servers.

Currently there is VERY UNLIKELY that a person with a community ban list will end up being GLOBALY banned from every server in GRAW. However, depending on how many admins decided to use this hypothetical ban list also could mean that they would end up being banned from a large % of existing servers. Not to metion the damage to a reputation as a result.

I have been a proponent of ban lists but only under the most strigent critera but that also means that what ever A/C is used MUST be robust and accurate to the nth degree. Currently we are miles and miles away from that. I would even prefer to only have people on the community ban list who are busted with community configured checks. That is to say, the poeple who land on it are guilty of positively detected cheat files, or settings that are used to gain an advantage over other players. That way what the community decides is "cheating" is what would get a person landed on the Community Ban List. And that doesn't include replays IMO. I feel they are just too open for intrepretation. The rest of the default AC detections are just handled with Kicks from the server or local bans if the server admin decides to do that. And local "griefers" don't land on it either.

Regardless if you do or don't like it, people are going to share ban lists. Some GRAW admins already are. At issue is just how widespread it will be and how much or little bias will be involved.

Anyway the long and short of it is, it's not going to be possible to really implent this any time soon. The A/C isn't robust enough. I just doesn't have the features currently to move beyond simple file checking. They are looking into it but it's still a ways off if it will change.

Edited by FI_FlimFlam, 27 September 2006 - 11:19 PM.


#41 aussiereg

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 11:08 AM

Forget it... I quit.


Well !! i never thought i would see it, thats the best post u have made in this subject..

I was begining to think that it would make no difference what anyone else would post in responce to your hard line would have any merrit,and i was just thinking...man you need to get a life, LOL..

I have not read past this post, but i somehow dont think you will ever agree to disagree, and just get on with the object of the whole thing, and that is to play the game, ban whoever you like from your own server, and leave others to do it their way, i dont use the anti cheat, but if i see someone doing something over the top or stupid, OUT they go, end of story...

#42 ROCO*AFZ*

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 12:45 PM


Forget it... I quit.


Well !! i never thought i would see it, thats the best post u have made in this subject..

I was begining to think that it would make no difference what anyone else would post in responce to your hard line would have any merrit,and i was just thinking...man you need to get a life, LOL..

I have not read past this post, but i somehow dont think you will ever agree to disagree, and just get on with the object of the whole thing, and that is to play the game, ban whoever you like from your own server, and leave others to do it their way, i dont use the anti cheat, but if i see someone doing something over the top or stupid, OUT they go, end of story...



Actually if you join a server that has the anticheat enabled... you are in fact using the anti cheat ;)
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#43 ToW-Angel

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 01:19 PM


Forget it... I quit.


Well !! i never thought i would see it, thats the best post u have made in this subject..

I was begining to think that it would make no difference what anyone else would post in responce to your hard line would have any merrit,and i was just thinking...man you need to get a life, LOL..

I have not read past this post, but i somehow dont think you will ever agree to disagree, and just get on with the object of the whole thing, and that is to play the game, ban whoever you like from your own server, and leave others to do it their way, i dont use the anti cheat, but if i see someone doing something over the top or stupid, OUT they go, end of story...


I'm not going to get baited by this... But, you really should read my other posts. Otherwise, you will not understand what I'm getting at. FlimFlam explained it a lot more.

And you took what I said entirely out of context.
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#44 ZJJ

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 02:10 PM

Adding another perspective to this discussion. Again from the standpoint of a user and not a game server admin.

Firstly, I'll state for the record that I think the majority of people who cheat are aware of their actions and something needs to be done about them.

However, what about those that are naive and really do not know that they are using a cheat that they got from a link where someone says "this is cool, try it"? So this naive person downloads this file, that unbeknownst to them, is altering their files. They go to long on to a server and get caught for cheating.

With the proposal of a global ban, this naive person won't get a second chance OR has to go through months of trying to clear his name. However, we know that his name will never really be cleared as I'm sure he will still be listed on someone's "watch" list.

So let me equate this to an example that is likely in my own life. I am an admin at a gaming site. Someone comes along and posts a link here. It is my duty to check out said links and programs. In the case of a "tool" that is for MP play, I would then need to log onto a server..... Hmmm, I'm just tagged as cheating for doing my job in checking things out. Under the proposal talked about here, I would be put on a global ban list and no longer able to enjoy MP play.

So my point is, which I am reading here to some extent, is that file checking should not be the only means by which to determine a cheater. It should also not be used as the only determinator when a global ban is the punishment, but could be used on the local level until the facts of the situation are ascertained. IMO

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#45 ToW-Angel

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 02:20 PM

While I do understand where you are coming from, ZJJ... But, naive or not, the person gets banned. They can chalk it up to a lesson learned still... "Don't download something if you don't know what it does."

I am in agreement with Rugg on this one. PunkBuster doesn't give people second chances, and other anti-cheat organizations don't either. Why should I give someone a chance to cheat?
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