[LT.INSTG8R]

Quote

i have an x800pro that cant render true HDR so why cant i get AA if true HDR isnt on anyway??

Because its a different form of HDR then other games have used. Its a per-pixel lighting technique which basically renders AA useless as it uses multiple renders(MRT's) which AA cant resolve the surfaces/edges(too many) and our current API (DX9) cant handle it and neither can any current GFX card.Not too mention the HUGE load(Mostly frame buffer=Vid RAM and Shaders )it puts on even the highest end GFX cards at this moment

This post has been edited by LT.INSTG8R: 09 May 2006 - 01:07 AM

[rossiski]

LT.INSTG8R, on May 8 2006, 08:03 PM, said:

Quote

i have an x800pro that cant render true HDR so why cant i get AA if true HDR isnt on anyway??

Because its a different form of HDR then other games have used. Its a per-pixel lighting technique which basically renders AA useless as it uses multiple renders(MRT's) which AA cant resolve the surfaces/edges(too many) and our current API (DX9) cant handle it and neither can any current GFX card.Not too mention the HUGE load(Mostly frame buffer=Vid RAM and Shaders )it puts on even the highest end GFX cards at this moment

So does that mean we will have to wait until DX10 and Windows Vista for true HDR and AA compatibility?

Anyone else have thoughts?

[LT.INSTG8R]

rossiski, on May 9 2006, 03:08 AM, said:

So does that mean we will have to wait until DX10 and Windows Vista for true HDR and AA compatibility?

Anyone else have thoughts?

With this technique(Deferred Lighting) its doubtful, had they used the more mature Fp16 HDR(like used in Oblivion) it can be used with AA(now bear in mind this is SM3.0 HDR so need the right hardware as well) HL2 and other Source Engined games used a SM2.0 HDR which almost any current SM2.0 compliant card can do

[}PW{ Postal]

I have a FX-60 processor, 2 gigs of corsair XMS ram and a ATI X1900XT and i just played with forcing the AA with all sorts of different combinations and saw no difference what so ever....

I dont see heavy jaggies but they are there nontheless...

[GRiN_desmond22]

Everybody get their facts straight, this is really annoying. It is not the HDR that hinders AA, it's the deferred lighting. As stated before this is pretty much a limitation of current hardware - not a limitation of the game software. Bo may or may not take on the discussion about why we chose one over the other, but surely not now since he's at E3.

Also, seems everybody want a scapegoat for the system requirements, but deferred lighting is not it. Sure you'll get a performance boost by turning off post effects - as long as the GPU is doing all the work - but as soon as you get into a firefight the CPU has some serious work to do, and then the framerate will drop regardless. It's not as simple as some of you self-proclaimed experts make it out to be.

[rossiski]

Desmond, I thank you for the clarification. I remember reading Bo's statements on this and didn't connect the two until now. Additionally, we're very lucky to have you (the GRiN crew) here amongst Ghost Recon's greatest fans.

I'm hoping that technology advances quickly enough to handle deferred lighting in all it's glory. If AA or other graphical options come along with that, even better. Maybe the new AMD processors or the NVidia 8100(?) will be the answer.

[whc.demo]

most of us understand that, couldnt they just make an option to NOT use differed lighting??

the question is how difficult would it be to implement a different lighting system into the engine?

that way you could have

1/ differed lighting + no AA

2/ regular* lighting + AA

[whc.demo]

quote-
GRiN_desmond22

Also, seems everybody want a scapegoat for the system requirements, but deferred lighting is not it. Sure you'll get a performance boost by turning off post effects - as long as the GPU is doing all the work - but as soon as you get into a firefight the CPU has some serious work to do, and then the framerate will drop regardless. It's not as simple as some of you self-proclaimed experts make it out to be.


so you are saying that when you turn off post processing effects in the xml that is turning off deffered lighting? if so why wont AA work in that situation?


soz bout the quote lol , my browser/java is playing up

[rossiski]

I understand (based on Desmond's and other comments) that current hardware out there doesn't support deferred lighting and AA.

What I don't understand is what hardware is needed to support both these features.
Is this something that's 6 months away? 1 year away? What needs to be done technically?

Is it, as I said above, something that only DX10 and DX10-supported graphics cards will provide?

I believe many, like me, are basing upgrading/purchasing decisions on this issue.

[ruggbutt]

GRiN_desmond22, on May 8 2006, 07:31 PM, said:

It is not the HDR that hinders AA, it's the deferred lighting.

Why would you guys use deferred lighting? I understand you want to make the game look as pretty as possible, but at the expense of not being able to use AA? It's horrible to look at a roofline and see little sharkfins everywhere. And I play at 1440x900.

[LT.INSTG8R]

GRiN_desmond22, on May 9 2006, 04:31 AM, said:

Everybody get their facts straight, this is really annoying. It is not the HDR that hinders AA, it's the deferred lighting. As stated before this is pretty much a limitation of current hardware - not a limitation of the game software. Bo may or may not take on the discussion about why we chose one over the other, but surely not now since he's at E3.

Also, seems everybody want a scapegoat for the system requirements, but deferred lighting is not it. Sure you'll get a performance boost by turning off post effects - as long as the GPU is doing all the work - but as soon as you get into a firefight the CPU has some serious work to do, and then the framerate will drop regardless. It's not as simple as some of you self-proclaimed experts make it out to be.

Desmond Im also aware of the pressure the Havok Physics are putting on the CPU so dont think Im blind to that either.So I ask if you went with this "future" current hardware limited lighting technique wheres the Dual Core,HT,SMP CPU optimizations to balance out CPU load as well, is that not "future"tech? I cant see how you could could go with this "leap forward" lighting knowing the load it would put on the GPU but then not use something that CAN be used to help this game run better.Are you intending to?
Also you say well you can turn off the post effects, well sure you can but your still not gonna get any AA either and the performance boost is fairly minimal vs the IQ loss(so yeah the lighting is necessary to set the mood)

[Rocky]

GRiN_desmond22, on May 9 2006, 03:31 AM, said:

It's not as simple as some of you self-proclaimed experts make it out to be.

I don't think many people are claiming to be experts Desmond, they are just trying to get to the bottom of why (with respect to AA) our next gen GR looks worse than our Original GR that came out 5 years ago.

On a side note, I came across an old forum discussion I had years ago when TOCA RD2 came out - it was released with no AA too - and there was a similar uproar in the TOCA community. Very similar actually. I re-installed that title last week and guess what, it now runs fine with AA on.

The thing is nobody wants to wait years for hardware or drivers to catch up to what people expect at launch.

[}PW{ Postal]

My question is did the devs know that if they used deffered lighting that AA wouldnt be possable? Did they try it with just AA but thought that deffered lighting gave the better apeal? The the only thing i hope for is options...like being able to turn off deferred lighting so i can run AA. My system is pretty high end and i shouldnt see any jaggies but i do...that puzzles me...lol

[Reb]

}PW{ Postal, on May 9 2006, 02:31 PM, said:

My question is did the devs know that if they used deffered lighting that AA wouldnt be possable? Did they try it with just AA but thought that deffered lighting gave the better apeal? The the only thing i hope for is options...like being able to turn off deferred lighting so i can run AA. My system is pretty high end and i shouldnt see any jaggies but i do...that puzzles me...lol

Yup. At least make a option in de settings menu. That would make alot of difference

[Rocky]

}PW{ Postal, on May 9 2006, 01:31 PM, said:

My question is did the devs know that if they used deffered lighting that AA wouldnt be possable?

Yes they did.