Anticheat server option

[Dai-San]

Dai-San,

all very valid points. However, the game in itself is mod friendly in nature, with the bundle structure. We might make the exe read a mod.bundle file in addition to quick.bundle and patch.bundle, and then have a simple loader/activation interface to let you choose what mod you want to activate. Then it's a matter of adding a filter list to the multiplayer browser to let users only see those servers that share the mod, or somehow display it in the general interface.

Just ironing out the wrinkles.

Stickan

The options you list would be great.

What a lot of people forget is that being a mod friendly game is a lot more than being able to actually Do the modding, that is only half the story. Once you have a mod completed you need people to be able to use it.

Without an easy to use interface for activating/deactivating mods then you put the casual gamer off. They don't necessarily want to have to 'Make' local folders, copy .xml files in and out of directories etc.

Hopefully your discussions will take this into account

[Stickan]

Colin: I think we're fine doing it this way. If we cannot answer a question it'd be kind of useless with a lot of "unanswered question-threads".

[DiGiTALY -TC-]

I feel this is a good 2 way feed back thread, do we need something more permanent, between the modders and the Team??

If both sides are up for this we will sort out something, talk a bit about it here if you would like this.

the best way to implement mod support is a top discussion..then there's also the problem of shared files between different mods..

did you have something in mind colin? (eg: a new section of the forum or a Q/A with the devs?)

so is it possible to give us the option to bundle up files? this seems to be THE solution..

A bundler is included with the map editor. When you export maps, they're made into mapname.bundle, which is the same concept. It's called bundler.exe.

bundler.exe? is it the same app used by the xbox sdk?

[Colin]

Rocky would be the man to ask and Grin would also need to suppor tsuch an idea, but I think because Grin and the mod community are already working together it would make sence.

The idea is to support this game from as many different angles and with support from the Team.

[Degamer]

One problem I forsee withthe bundle option, is one of the same problems were encountering now with the XML files. When two mods mod the same XML file (such as the post_effects.xml, which is used differently by a number of mods), even in non-conflicting ways, its impossible to run bolth mods without re-editing the code of the file in question to contain bolth mods. This is very noob unfriendly (not that freindly for non-noobs either unless you know what code was changed exactly). A way to sort this out would be huge blessing to the mod community!

Edited June 21, 2006 by Degamer

[Stickan]

One problem I forsee withthe bundle option, is one of the same problems were encountering now with the XML files. When two mods mod the same XML file (such as the post_effects.xml, which is used differently by a number of mods), even in non-conflicting ways, its impossible to run bolth mods without re-editing the code of the file in question to contain bolth mods. This is very noob unfriendly (not that freindly for non-noobs either unless you know what code was changed exactly). A way to sort this out would be huge blessing to the mod community!

With the proposed bundle solution you would only be allowed one mod bundle file, and a selection system of which one of your mods you want to activate. Any files you wish to have outside a bundle, to tweak or play with until you can make sure it's ready for inclusion with your bundle(or you request its inclusion to the mod author), would still go to the local/ folder.

Perhaps a system where a server admin could say "these mods are server approved", so one could play on the server with or without the "community mod" and it wouldn't block you even if you didn't have it(since it's quite harmless)? The server would require a copy of it so we could verify that the players who do have it have the proper one and not just a renamed one, and if you don't have it at all it'll just acknowledge the fact and approve you anyway.

Open for suggestions here.

[Nemon]

Mods should all be in a single mod folder. Mod bundles should contain an XML file in the root of the bundle with the mods name, version, author and other pertinent info. The game should load all mod bundles "config.xml" file letting you choose in game which mods to enable. Enabled mods should be in a second list of active mods and allow you to adjust each mods priority. Mods with a higher priority would override same modded files from other lower rights mods. Ofcourse if a lower mod requires a file modded and a high ranked mod undoes its modification, it can break the game, but there you have incompatible mods. When playing multiplayer only mods that are enabled on the server should be loaded...

Oh, autodownload of missing server mods and HTTP redirct would be a bonus.

Edited June 21, 2006 by Nemon

[tilliboy]

Mods should all be in a single mod folder. Mod bundles should contain an XML file in the root of the bundle with the mods name, version, author and other pertinent info. The game should load all mod bundles "config.xml" file letting you choose in game which mods to enable. Enabled mods should be in a second list of active mods and allow you to adjust each mods priority. Mods with a higher priority would override same modded files from other lower rights mods. Ofcourse if a lower mod requires a file modded and a high ranked mod undoes its modification, it can break the game, but there you have incompatible mods. When playing multiplayer only mods that are enabled on the server should be loaded...

Oh, autodownload of missing server mods and HTTP redirct would be a bonus.

nemon can i be your padawan ?

[Degamer]

One problem I forsee withthe bundle option, is one of the same problems were encountering now with the XML files. When two mods mod the same XML file (such as the post_effects.xml, which is used differently by a number of mods), even in non-conflicting ways, its impossible to run bolth mods without re-editing the code of the file in question to contain bolth mods. This is very noob unfriendly (not that freindly for non-noobs either unless you know what code was changed exactly). A way to sort this out would be huge blessing to the mod community!

With the proposed bundle solution you would only be allowed one mod bundle file, and a selection system of which one of your mods you want to activate. Any files you wish to have outside a bundle, to tweak or play with until you can make sure it's ready for inclusion with your bundle(or you request its inclusion to the mod author), would still go to the local/ folder.

Perhaps a system where a server admin could say "these mods are server approved", so one could play on the server with or without the "community mod" and it wouldn't block you even if you didn't have it(since it's quite harmless)? The server would require a copy of it so we could verify that the players who do have it have the proper one and not just a renamed one, and if you don't have it at all it'll just acknowledge the fact and approve you anyway.

Open for suggestions here.

Perhaps I didn't make myslef clear. I'm not conserned withhte MP ramifications, so to speak (I'm a SP type of guy), but am more concerned about runnign multiple mods of the same file.

Say I download 3 mods I want to run, mods A, B, and C.

Mod A adjust the recoil on the SCAR, mod B adjust the rate of fire of the SCAR, and mod C changes the clip size of the SCAR. All 3 of theese mods use the same XML file (u_scar_light.xml).

Now, as far as I know, to actually run them all at once, since they use the same file, you would have to manually go into the XML and edit the original file to contain all the changes of the previous 3 (as you can only run 1 copy of the file). A very noob unfriendly task at best.

A system where we can run all 3 mods, A, B, and C together without having to manually combine them would be ideal, not just for SP, but for MP as well.

[Beers]

Perhaps I didn't make myslef clear. I'm not conserned withhte MP ramifications, so to speak (I'm a SP type of guy), but am more concerned about runnign multiple mods of the same file.

Say I download 3 mods I want to run, mods A, B, and C.

Mod A adjust the recoil on the SCAR, mod B adjust the rate of fire of the SCAR, and mod C changes the clip size of the SCAR. All 3 of theese mods use the same XML file (u_scar_light.xml).

Now, as far as I know, to actually run them all at once, since they use the same file, you would have to manually go into the XML and edit the original file to contain all the changes of the previous 3 (as you can only run 1 copy of the file). A very noob unfriendly task at best.

A system where we can run all 3 mods, A, B, and C together without having to manually combine them would be ideal, not just for SP, but for MP as well.

are you suggesting a .pak system like the quake series?? (seems ideal for modding, maybe we can do that with the bundles...)

Edited June 21, 2006 by Beers

[TedSmith]

And very complicated to code as well considering that all the options exist within the same file.

It would have to detect which alterations were made against the original file for each modded version. Sounds simple, but in practicality it's really not.

As is, it just detects a modded file and uses that instead, so multiple mods with the same xml file would just end up overwriting the settings in that file with each iteration it compiled.

I have my doubts that mods that conflict with one another will be able to be loaded simultaneously in this game without major changes that are beyond the scope of a patch. Of course they may find some way to fit it into the schedule, but I personally wouldn't consider it that high priority to be completely honest.

In reality though, I'd really love to see a way to create our own xml files that the game would compile containing ONLY the changed settings. That's another way to go about it, but it also makes modding more complicated since we'll need to track what file inclusions are necessary and the game itself already seems to have specific information that it expects to recieve from certain xml files as well as specific information that it provides to them. As is, if you so much as change certain object names in the xmls it causes a catastrophic crash, which I can only surmise is because the game is expecting a specific object in that file to place the data in. In other words, making the game detect and read xml files that WE create for our mods would involve creating a system that's capable of either detecting similar lines to other xml files (possibly via an include statement in our custom xml) or one that's capable of reading specific objects/variables from within the xml in which case we'd have to be provided a list.

Edit: Just for clarity since I tend to babble...

What I'm suggesting is a way to create very specific xml files instead of sending out the full original with one line altered.

Using your ABC example as a mode to explain this: Each of the mods would no longer be the full file. Mod A would be an xml that contains only the ONE line altered that's necessary for the recoil change and nothing else of the original file except for perhaps a line to link to the initial file so the game knows what object it's altering.

Edited June 21, 2006 by TedSmith

[Degamer]

And very complicated to code as well considering that all the options exist within the same file.

It would have to detect which alterations were made against the original file for each modded version. Sounds simple, but in practicality it's really not.

As is, it just detects a modded file and uses that instead, so multiple mods with the same xml file would just end up overwriting the settings in that file with each iteration it compiled.

I have my doubts that mods that conflict with one another will be able to be loaded simultaneously in this game without major changes that are beyond the scope of a patch. Of course they may find some way to fit it into the schedule, but I personally wouldn't consider it that high priority to be completely honest.

In reality though, I'd really love to see a way to create our own xml files that the game would compile containing ONLY the changed settings. That's another way to go about it, but it also makes modding more complicated since we'll need to track what file inclusions are necessary and the game itself already seems to have specific information that it expects to recieve from certain xml files as well as specific information that it provides to them. As is, if you so much as change certain object names in the xmls it causes a catastrophic crash, which I can only surmise is because the game is expecting a specific object in that file to place the data in. In other words, making the game detect and read xml files that WE create for our mods would involve creating a system that's capable of either detecting similar lines to other xml files (possibly via an include statement in our custom xml) or one that's capable of reading specific objects/variables from within the xml in which case we'd have to be provided a list.

Edit: Just for clarity since I tend to babble...

What I'm suggesting is a way to create very specific xml files instead of sending out the full original with one line altered.

Using your ABC example as a mode to explain this: Each of the mods would no longer be the full file. Mod A would be an xml that contains only the ONE line altered that's necessary for the recoil change and nothing else of the original file except for perhaps a line to link to the initial file so the game knows what object it's altering.

I know absolutely nothing about coding other than what i've done bumbling around the .xml files, but what you siujest makes perfect sense to me! Comments form the GRIN squad?

[DiGiTALY -TC-]

hmm this is gettin way too complicate..

on the next few weeks maybe the modders community will start to create serious mod projects with groups of people working together on high quality products (OPF docet)

cmon we cant keep doing those micro-mods forever.. we are getting a fully functional editor!!

then each mod team will choose the settings for realism, gore or whatever which better fit their projects, and natural selection will do the rest...

there will be always the possibility to choose between a few but high quality arcadish or realistic mods.. and people with a minimal know-how, will be always free to mod a mod and play SP or MP on their custom servers and to suggest a few changes to the mod team (the same way we do with grin )

[Kylote]

Does anyone have a copy of the unmodified Local folder so I can sub it for mine? All I had installed was the 1.1 blood mod but I am unsure of what files to get rid of. If someone can put a zip up of the default Local folder so I don't have to reinstall I would be appreciative, or at least let me know what has to be changed. Thanks

[Beaver]

Was there actually anything wrong with the implementation/way mods worked in [GR]?

It seemed to be a pretty good system for servers & users alike. Install mod(s) on server and activate them. Clients install mod - join server (no activation required)

At least now with GRAW - the mods can just end up as <mod_name>.bundle - and can be activated through the menu on the server, maybe even have multiple mods active (like [GR]), e.g. weapons mod + map mod combo's?

[TedSmith]

I know absolutely nothing about coding other than what i've done bumbling around the .xml files, but what you siujest makes perfect sense to me! Comments form the GRIN squad?

I'm not nearly as advanced as the GRiN folk or Nemon, myself. I only really know the logic and design theory behind things. Making them actually work tends to be someone else's job.

[reeper_3d]

Howto run Multiple Mods at Once:

** This will not guarentee compatibility with all mods, but it WILL allow mods to run in a hierchial order

** Anybody who knows CSS will understand this perfectly as it would basicaly be a cascading system

Howto:

When activating mods the game first loads all default files and properties from them, when loading activated mod files it starts from the lowest ranked file files first. It loads all properties from them and overwrites exhisting properties that are set. It proceeds through each file going up the order overwriting the properties each time.

Mod A Sample XML Rank #1

PropertyA = 1

PropertyB = 1

PropertyC = 1

Mod B Sample XML Rank #2

PropertyA = 1

PropertyB = 1

PropertyD = 2

Mod C Sample XML Rank #3

PropertyB = 1

PropertyC = 2

PropertyE = 1

Final Loaded Settings

PropertyA = 1

PropertyB = 1

PropertyC = 1

PropertyD = 2

PropertyE = 1

What you have in the end is multiple mods loaded, if the mods dont overlap on properties in ways that break them then all the mods will work, BUT if the mods do require different property values something will break. In the example above mod A and mod B both WILL work but mod C may or may not depending on whether or not property C needs to be 2.

This also requires modders in their mods to only include the properties in their xml files which need to be set. If modders include their files correctly and make sure all depedencies are accounted for in their files there is no reason why mods cannot work together.

[Kylote]

Does no one have the default Local folder? I would like to play online but having downloaded and installed the Blood Mod prevents me from doing so? I figure this is the appropriate topic for this considering it is a discussion of how mods don't work now in light of the new anticheat.

[Toniezz]

Sounds very plausible Reeper

So if I understand correctly modders only have to implement the piece of xml-code, inside the xml-file, which differs from the original files? Plus set up the correct dependencies for hierarchical order (priority) between the mods? Another one: in [GR] you could set up the hierarchical order (priority) within the game itself. Is this also possible in GRAW?

Sorry if I'm askin's stupid questions, I am still kinda 'green' on this subject but am doing my best to keep up with you guys to keep the 'gap' to you all as small as possible, so as soon as I have my copy of GRAW I can jump in.

Nice found!

Does no one have the default Local folder? I would like to play online but having downloaded and installed the Blood Mod prevents me from doing so? I figure this is the appropriate topic for this considering it is a discussion of how mods don't work now in light of the new anticheat.

If I am correct you can just remove the blood mod out of your local folder in order to get back to your 'default' settings. But correct me if I am wrong.

[Agent Smith]

If I am correct you can just remove the blood mod out of your local folder in order to get back to your 'default' settings. But correct me if I am wrong.

That is correct.

[Kylote]

I was pretty sure it altered files, but I'll try. When I completely took the English folder contents out my Ghost Recon gave me an error loading something.

EDIT: Alright, that worked. I think last time I was deleting the contents of the English folder in local while the game was running (at the menu) which caused the error. Now that I did it without the game running everything works fine. Sorry about that, and thanks

Edited June 22, 2006 by Kylote

[Kakanater]

Even if its just performance tweaks? I run an 128 AGP card and I can't play graw for nothing without my tweaks.

I don't think your config would matter... but, what files did you edit? If you needed to unbundle the game, change physics, or gameplay I would say it would mess with punkbuster(or whatever they are using)... if not then you may be able to keep your tweaks

I tweaked the rendersettings.xml to have certain texture set to low/medium/high, and to have the majority of the workload sent to my RAM instead of my GPU. I have a AMD 4200 and it picks up the slack of my GFX card. Same tweaks allow me to run Oblivion on full high siettings.

Thats cool but can you give me some directions on how to do that causse U have 2gb RAM but nit that good a graphics card.

[Degamer]

http://www.tweakguides.com/GRAW_1.html

Check page 7.