Offshoot from GR:FS PC Release thread

[Oelmuvun]

ADMINS, I AM NOT STARTING ANY DEBATE AGAINST GR:FS, I SIMPLY AM CURIOUS OF THIS PERSON'S OPINION.

I really like OGR, but it is lacking in a few areas.

OGR? As in the first Ghost Recon? What things do you find lacking?

Well, mostly in the weapon customization department and the AI department.

In the case of AI they are either insane and know exactly where you are and hit you in one shot with iron sights when you even barely peek out.

OR

They are dumb as a rock and do not even see you coming.

OR

Your AI buddies cannot hit the broad side of a barn on one occasion but then have perfect precision another time. Even if they have terrain and stealth advantage on both occasions.

WRT weapon customization I do understand that not all weapons can take certain things and of course they have to limit the kits in some manner.. a guy with a suppressed&scoped long range rifle /and/ a suppressed&scoped shorter range rifle /and/ a bunch of grenades is not quite what you might find in a field. But that did not stop me from doing it in GRAW1 w/ brettzies.

There are also the times when you set a point on the map for you buddies to go to and the route cannot be calculated or takes a long time to calculate.

Never mind that you can pretty much never send them into buildings without them getting their posteriors handed to them. And forget about multi-level stuff or enclosed spaces where they trip over each other.

Now, this is more something that was not quite as technically practical ten years ago with more limited computing power.. but I would kinda like that explosive to actually affect that interior wall as well as that guy on the other side of it in a house. As you may have noticed interior walls are incredibly flimsy and even a round from a reasonable pistol can penetrate the vast majority of them. Bullet fragments bouncing around after entering a room can also be very deadly but simulating those certainly adds to the computational load.

Exterior walls are thicker and more sturdy in general and not all weapons can chew through all of them even with extended fire in a specific spot so I am not bothered by them.

Do not get me wrong, I love original Ghost Recon but it is by no means perfect. Nor is basically anything else on the market.

*Edit

OHYEAH I forgot! Ghost Recon needs TrackIR support!.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Oelmuvun

[101459]

Pardon me for chiming in, and I don't want to imply you're in any way 'wrong' for liking what you like, but perhaps consider:

· Ghost Recon is over a decade old (and that's no apology for it being old)

· in ten years hence game AI has progressed very little

· there are brilliant AI mods for Ghost Recon right here on GRN that make it some of the best in realism gaming even today

· many of Ghost Recon's scenarios were set in Eastern Europe where walls are heavy stone masonry

· Ghost Recon is a much more realistic game than GRAW

The last point I think relates to your weapon modification 'bone'; i.e. it's not particularly realistic that an Elite Special Operator is going to carry an additional 350 lbs. of weapon accessories including: NVG, various optics, Scopes, heavy barrels, different capacity magazines, stocks, rail mount Mall Ninja crap and/or have them magically awarded to him as 'Special Casino Prizes' in combat for kills -- even today no less during the Cold War...

Not saying there's anything wrong with any of that in games per se, just that it was not part and parcel of the Clancy R6, Rogue Spear, and Ghost Recon franchise from get-go, which used to intend more realism, atmosphere, and tactical depth over marketing 'features & benefits', toys, bells & whistles, and Casino kill prizes...

Just say'n...

Edited April 12, 2012 by 101459

[RileyFletcher_01]

I'm gonna argue both of you guys, and agree some too.

100% correct on the AI issue. Red Storm really messed up there on the AI. They're either genius or mentally retarded.

Not really bothered by limited kits; most mods allow every single weapon combination which is the same as GRAW in a sense.

Maps can be set to have lower-penetration settings on walls, RSE fault again. Anyway, I don't see any improvement in GRAW on that issue.

Now for you, 101

The thing that gets to me is that the enemy AI, no, even allied NPC characters will flank you, run from grenades, use suppressive fire, and basically use their brains. You can have a group of non-playable allies who will wipe out the enemy, some pretty awesome stuff to watch, but your guys run in the open unless you set them to Recon, which in turn makes them walk 1 foot a minute and hide every time they see an enemy. Why the heck did RSE do that to your team? Laziness on their part or just trying to be mean I guess.

Yep, GR beats GRAW. Bottom line my friends.

[Oelmuvun]

I know that carrying the fanciest weapons is not realistic but I do still wish that you could have some manner of flexibility even if all you wanted to add to an existing kit is a single suppressor or sight provided that the weapon you are using could actually take it. (as seen by that other kit beside it where the same gun had one, but left you with a secondary that was not suitable for the current mission)

I mean, I like ARMA2 and it has no gunsmith-esque feature like GR:FS and to a lesser extent GRAW1. But you can occasionally adjust your loadout in certain areas at certain times depending on SP, MP, custom mission, etc.

And I know that the AI is generally bad because it is old and that not many games have proper AI these days anyway.

Though I do not want Ghost Recon to have unlockables, and never did I say GRAW was realistic. I simply abuse GRAW1's weapon customization at the expense of being bogged down.

Yea, it is easy to go and say I wish <gamehere> had all these modern features.

I think when making the initial post something I was feeling and affecting it was related to the guys who are obsessed with OGR and to them it has absolutely no faults and it is better than any modern game, etc.

It is good but not that good. It has lots of great aspects as well as others that are not so great.

And finding something to be lacking really depends to what you compare it and what you personally like. You ideally should not compare it to modern games since it is quite old..

Though being realistic if a new player goes and picks up a title like orig Ghost Recon what do you think 95% of those people will compare it to regardless if they should or not? I am sure they would love it less than any of us since we played GR when it was still new and have developed positive feelings for it. But even in the face of modern games it can stand on it's own two feet when it comes to certain functionality.

I am not fully certain where I was going here.......

Well, I personally, as I play it today, feel that orig GR does lack a couple things that would be nice to have. It is a wonderful game though. And that basically what I said in the other thread.

Anyway, I should look into some of these AI mods.

[petsfed]

I have to agree regarding the kit system's failings.

I'm not asking for modded into ridiculousness ala Brettzie's mod. All I'm asking is the means to choose optics, foregrip/grenade launcher/bipod, and whether or not its suppressed without having to cycle through dozens of unrelated kits. The original GRAW, on PC, had without a doubt the best outfitting interface of any Ghost Recon game, and the gunsmith system on GR:FS looks set to knock it off its pedestal. Whether or not the rest of the game makes up for that one shining high point (as was occasionally the case with GRAW) remains to be seen.

To be honest, I prefer playing GRAW over Ghost Recon because it has a much more powerful and robust control scheme. The order system was vastly improved over Ghost Recon, and indeed reached its zenith in GRAW2. The problem, however, lay in its writing, mission design, and AI. Related to that, the red diamond system added a LOT to situational awareness, so that a 4 man team (even as dumb as your teammates could be) could successfully take on enemy forces that outnumbered them 10, 20, 50 to one. It was much maligned because it took a lot of the challenge out, but if it could work as well in the real world as it did in the game, you can bet our guys on the ground would want it.

[RileyFletcher_01]

The red diamonds in OGR and in GRAW was ridiculous in my opinion. That technology isn't going to be around for a very long time, if ever.

I'm going to leave with this remark:

95 percent of people who would pick up OGR would either find faults with it or think it ridiculously boring. That last 5 percent, those of us who're still making mods for it and playing it, while realizing its faults, respect it for what it is: a true masterpiece that has withstood the release of hundreds of other games like it in title and style, but not in its fantastic, nay, incredible, gameplay that is the closest to life thing you're going to get in games these days.

Edited April 13, 2012 by rileyfletcher_01