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I am not sure which is more naive: expecting squad AI to be reintroduced via user-pressure or assuming it would be there in the first place.  I am guilty on the second count, not on the first and saddened by what I think amounts to a "final" break with the core tactical gameplay from the original games in this series.  I am not convinced that tactical gameplay is at all possible in this emphatically cinematic version of the game unless you get a full complement of coop players with voice comms. How doable/enjoyable will it be to solo these missions in the absence of friendly AI, do you think? I know the AI in Wildlands was goofy but the sync-shot feature was vaguely tactical and it seems a bit of an immersion-breaker to be solo-ing missions that should obviously be squad/team missions. This latest act of dumbing down seems both regrettable and final to me, however much lip-service the devs — including the ex-Green Beret on the dev team — pay to tactical gameplay.  I suppose I will give it a try in the Beta.

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Excuse me "ranting" all over the place...

Ubisoft says they took all the things people wanted and implemented them into the game (bloused boots, ugh).... 

-People asked for improved squad AI and found a word that rhymed with it...removed.

-A game focused on the desperation and isolation of the scenario sounds interesting...but in the actual gameplay shown its basically business as usual...just more hi-tech

 

Questions I came away with:

-Is the game balanced for a SP campaign or for 4-player co-op?

-If the synch shot is now done via drones and all characters are persistent does that mean each individual player in the co-op team gets drone synch shot too?

-There is no way a game designed to be "accessible" to everyone and of this scale can maintain the illusion that the player is always overwhelmed and hunted.... hell youd hardly be able to move about anywhere if you were so overwhelmed by the environment that you cant seek cover or concealment and are forced to "hide in the open" ...I look forward to seeing more gameplay in how they plan to set the tone, see if they can make players feel like prey instead of predators....few games manage it for short scenarios (crysis when u first get ambushed by nanosuit enemies, a few of the bodark ambushes).

 

After the Wildlands trailer I felt anticipation because of the great potential of the game...it is the opposite here, this will be a wait and see situation...it goes beyond the missing squad..its a combination of things to include the bad guys who look like rejects from Bungies Destiny game...

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On 11/05/2019 at 05:48, 5timechamp said:

People asked for improved squad AI and found a word that rhymed with it...removed.

Haha, joking aside though, for me - this is a huge decision that Ubisoft have made.

With Wildlands there was a section of the community, Ghost Recon vets, that said Wildlands was a step too far removed from Ghost Recon, so much so that it no longer deserved the title of Ghost Recon, it simply was no longer worthy of its predecessors. It was a GREAT game, but it was not a Ghost Recon game.

I argued against that, there was much of what made Ghost Recon great, even though some aspects were indeed missing. But on the whole, I was supportive, and still am, of Wildlands.

With Breakpoint though, no. 

I am sure it will be a great game and I will definitely be playing it - but it is NOT a game that should have Ghost Recon on the box.

Ghost Recon is small infantry tactical gaming.

Breakpoint is one man (unless you are in co-op but they don't explain that one away), against an overwhelming enemy. This is not Ghost Recon.

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Im ok with no AI - The way I see it is if you play solo, this is a great example of ###### going south and you lost your squad... If you play coop - you lost the difference between a 4 man squad and who you bring along.

I have a feeling that they will just be replacing squad mates with drones anyways. At least I hope so since the whole story is about this drone manufacturing island.

This is what i wrote on the ubi forums:

"Counter argument to the AI team mates.. .what if, since this whole things is based around drones, your class has a drone skill tree that replaces the AI team mates? Sniper class - up to 3 scout drones that will mark the position and do a free scout within an area. If they have a Medic class a drone that helps with wounds and revives you if you go down. I'm sure they will have some Assault class - his drone can be up to 3 ambush / defend drones that you can place wherever you want within a range around you and they will stay there and defend / assault anyone that comes within range of them. Then there is that Panther class that gets a drone that can do smoke screen, or a single silent shot, [or an emp blast] but has to be manually driven. There is soo much that can be done to replace the AI with the way they are taking this and I hope they go more this route than some AI team mates to be honest."

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I kind of argue a similar point to you, Rocky, I don't think Wildlands was as far removed from the name of Ghost Recon as Future Soldier was. It was simply a great game that had frustratingly greater potential. 

Breakpoint errs on the FS side for me, it still looks great, and mechanics-wise it's closer to the original than any game has come in the franchise so far (from what I'm seeing anyway) but removing the teammates is a bit of a 'egh' thing for me. It makes sense on the story side of things with what they have going, but yeah... bit weird. 
 

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11 minutes ago, Evilducky said:

something something drones

that's the plan, AI teammates have been replaced by player controlled drones instead, allowing you to perform sync shots etc. 

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On 12/05/2019 at 13:42, Rocky said:

Haha, joking aside though, for me - this is a huge decision that Ubisoft have made.

With Wildlands there was a section of the community, Ghost Recon vets, that said Wildlands was a step too far removed from Ghost Recon, so much so that it no longer deserved the title of Ghost Recon, it simply was no longer worthy of its predecessors. It was a GREAT game, but it was not a Ghost Recon game.

I argued against that, there was much of what made Ghost Recon great, even though some aspects were indeed missing. But on the whole, I was supportive, and still am, of Wildlands.

With Breakpoint though, no. 

I am sure it will be a great game and I will definitely be playing it - but it is NOT a game that should have Ghost Recon on the box.

Ghost Recon is small infantry tactical gaming.

Breakpoint is one man (unless you are in co-op but they don't explain that one away), against an overwhelming enemy. This is not Ghost Recon.

I'm certain the majority of the player base will be playing 4 player coop though. If anything I'm sure that tons of people over analyzed break point and if anything it will play very similar to wildlands.

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It just shouldn't be called GR, I think that's the key point. 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Lightspeed said:

It just shouldn't be called GR, I think that's the key point. 

Agreed. I think Future Soldier was the most Ghost Recon game we've ever got since you could go invisible, like a ghost, and do some form of reconnaissance. 😋

On a more serious note, features like the bivouac, the serious injuries, and buddy carry are things that would complement a squad AI extremely well. I'm still of the opinion that their reasoning behind removing them is complete BS.

Edited by nyleken
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Posted (edited)

The reason the “cloaking” in FS didnt bother me that much is because it felt like a design choice which helped “justify” why the AI squadmates didnt get detected and why the player could get so near as well...

the “detection” range in Wildlands was near the same as Future Soldier without the narrative justification.

 

 

the tumbling down hills, injuries, and bivouac would only add to the experience if the enemy AI feels properly aggressive... can the game create the necessary pressure where the gamer resorts to taking the tumble? Id love to see that.... anything less and having to slow carry someone is just a gameplay nuisance... same goes if every function (healing, climbing, scavenging) is reduced to watching a dial like in red dead 2

Edited by 5timechamp

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Posted (edited)

I'm still blaming the people who desperately wanted the option to turn the AI off in Wildlands. Ubisoft should've stuck to their guns and never acquiesced.

They probably figured that since "most" people hated the AI squad in Wildlands, the playerbase would be fine without having any in Breakpoint.

As a bit of a silver lining I hear that the narrative reason for the coop Ghosts being present is that another group of operators came in to reinforce Nomad. If so, that means Ubisoft at least left the possibility of an AI squad being implemented later while still fitting the game's overall narrative. Maybe during the single player campaign you get the AI team back after the prologue, I dunno.

Edited by nyleken

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OMG they brought AI back from the dead!

"Ubisoft don't listen to fans" Hold my beer

Ubisoft Downgrade wah wah wah" Hold my beer

Got to hand it to Ubisoft, they really are banashing some of the bad press they used to get into the history books.

 

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Just now, Rocky said:

OMG they brought AI back from the dead!

"Ubisoft don't listen to fans" Hold my beer

Ubisoft Downgrade wah wah wah" Hold my beer

Got to hand it to Ubisoft, they really are banashing some of the bad press they used to get into the history books.

 

They knew what was up, bro. It made no damn sense to take away AI teammates for Solo players, especially for a GR game. It is all about freedom to play how you want. Some like doing milsim with buddies in CO-OP, while others (like myself) like using the AI whenever needed. We only needed enhanced squad control where we can give them a waypoint order via the tactical map and they have enough intelligence to take a vehicle on their own and drive there. The AI team for a GR game should automatically work as a 3 man team (maintaining a formation and working together like a fire team) when given an assault order. They can throw smoke, flashbangs, frags, etc. when facing down a large group of enemies in the open or clearing buildings.

A player should be able to give a command "Clear Structure" and the AI team breach the door, throw a banger, and then clear the building tactically. When they are not given orders, they follow the player automatically like in Wildlands. I don't understand how they missed this and it only points to people on the staff not really understanding that GR covers a specific type of community. Moving the franchise towards being more like The Division or some other solo survival game doesn't work. Hopefully, when they do bring back the AI teammates, we can actually change not only their appearance, but also their weapons. We don't want a port of the AI teammates from Wildlands. Make them smarter and more capable like all the other AI in the game that can travel all over the map and get into vehicles on their own.

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I'd like all that stuff too, but I think all we can reasonably expect is the exact same as Wildlands.

I was hoping for Wildlands 2 to have the enhanced team AI feature set we had in GR in 2001, so was shocked when it became clear that not only was there no enhanced team, but there was no team at all! So now they have announced AI is back, all of a sudden its great again, we have our AI, and we have forgotten about what we were wishing for before Breakpoint was announced!

Genius move by Ubisoft LOL.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

AI teammates in Wildlands were not a pain like they can be in ARMA but they could be much better as bugkill alludes to.
Arma AI teammates can do much more but it comes with a good dose of aggravation too.

I'd say all of us had to suspend disbelief in regards to our Wildlands AI teammates. Drive off without them and they are magically in the back seat 100 yds down the road. Glance over at them in a firefight and the blood is pouring out of their body. But they saved me countless times and never broke stealth that I remember.
The voice acting could be repetitive but I still liked having them around. If they could drive me around while I'm hanging out the window shooting that would be nice.

 

Edited by wombat50

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7 minutes ago, wombat50 said:

Drive off without them and they are magically in the back seat 100 yds down the road.
 

Yeh, or the one that happens to me all the time but I never see anyone taking about it - is when you wait for them all to climb in before you set off, then when you put the foot down, the back doors open and they all roll out of the moving vehicle!

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29 minutes ago, wombat50 said:

The AI in Wildlands was not a pain like it can be in ARMA but it could be much better as bugkill alludes to.
I'd say all of us had to suspend disbelief in regards to our AI teammates. Drive off without them and they are magically in the back seat 100 yds down the road.
Glance over at them in a firefight and the blood is pouring out of their body. But they saved me countless times and never broke stealth that I remember.
The voice acting could be repetitive but I still liked having them around. If they could drive me around while I'm hanging out the window shooting that would be nice.

 

I've made it clear on the Breakpoint forums that we need NPC's, not "AI teammates". We need the dev team to understand that Solo players need NPC special operations soldiers that work as a team when we give them orders. They have all this data from Navy Seal and SF consultants, so they need to put those behaviors in the NPC teammates. When we call them AI teammates, we are essentially asking for regular troops with unlimited ammo that have no behavior beyond shooting and healing. We need NPC's for Breakpoint where they act like special operators in the virtual world. Not OP, but they act tactically in the environment and can do stealth takedowns when ordered.

 

When Ubisoft gives Far Cry 5 a better squad control mechanic than a GR game, you know something is screwed up. Hopefully, they will step it up and make it right.

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1 minute ago, bugkill said:

When Ubisoft gives Far Cry 5 a better squad control mechanic than a GR game, you know something is screwed up. Hopefully, they will step it up and make it right.

How does it work in FC5?

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4 minutes ago, Rocky said:

How does it work in FC5?

 

 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Rocky said:

How does it work in FC5?

Far Cry 5's "Guns for Hire" are full fledged NPC's, not simply "AI teammates". They can drive vehicles, fly aircraft, etc. That mechanic should have been in Wildlands.

Edited by bugkill
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I for one will probably not use the AI unless they do the challenges. That's all I use them for anymore anyways. I just hope that when we disable them, you dont hear their banter. Kinda kills the mode when you have things talking when they are not around.

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Good to see their return but I wouldn't be surprised if there won't be a significant upgrade over Wildlands. They're a post launch addition after all. 

Already seeing some people be upset over their return, though. Worst take I've seen is how making Breakpoint a solo experience would've been an "innovation" and ensure that Ghost Recon isn't "strictly just a tactical shooter." 

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2 hours ago, nyleken said:

Good to see their return but I wouldn't be surprised if there won't be a significant upgrade over Wildlands. They're a post launch addition after all. 

Already seeing some people be upset over their return, though. Worst take I've seen is how making Breakpoint a solo experience would've been an "innovation" and ensure that Ghost Recon isn't "strictly just a tactical shooter." 

Which is stupid since the AI team is optional in Wildlands. Think about it, the AI team will be added to the game, but it won't change the campaign. It is no different than when human players join you in your game. You can choose to play with others or not, so the same can be said for the AI team. Those whiners can't help themselves from crying when common sense tells you that Ubisoft ain't changing the game by adding the AI team. They serve the same purpose as CO-OP players which is to give more immersion by playing the game as being part of a team. 

The funny thing is that Breakpoint is the type of game that should have been based around having a team anyway considering all those damn drones and enemy everywhere. Also, it flies in the face of realism when you have Nomad take on the Wolves, a PMC security force, and a ######load of Skell tech, all by himself. Watching the gameplay at E3 had me laughing my ass off thinking how a solo player will be able to take down a Behemoth drone all by himself or clearing the base.  

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4 hours ago, Evilducky said:

I for one will probably not use the AI unless they do the challenges. That's all I use them for anymore anyways. I just hope that when we disable them, you dont hear their banter. Kinda kills the mode when you have things talking when they are not around.

They are being added to Breakpoint, but I'm confident that their voice work will be centered around team communication. Also, the AI team is optional in Wildlands and I'm confident that it will be optional in Breakpoint. Hell, it would be cool if they did a Ghost Mode that featured the AI team while leaving the campaign as is.

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