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Contrails are nothing but water vapor or ice crystals formed as hot exhaust hits cold air.

True, contrails are just that. And they usually disappear within 30 seconds. Some stick around for slightly longer depending on air temperature and other factors, but they don't stick around for hours and spread out over a vast area.

Chemtrails do stick around and spread out though, and they are becoming very common everywhere. And then they fall to the earth and poison living things. Living things that keep the earth working right.

Actually, its possible to "seed" clouds by introducing ice crystals. Condensation only happens when there are things to condense around, sometimes that's something as simple as air turbulence. So when a contrail fails to disappear within a minute or so, it doesn't mean that there must be some sort of chemical in there. Just that you have the appropriate conditions for cirrus clouds to form.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that what you're seeing aren't chem trails. I haven't done the legwork to say that definitively. I'm just saying that there's a very long standing explanation for long-lived contrails, one that's been around since well before airplanes were invented, so you'll have to show how and why these can't be the beginnings of cirrus clouds. As I said before, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

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You want to know the US Government's true role in 9/11? Sheer, unmitigated stupidity.
Yes indeed I agree, there are many aspects that show this, although one major aspect is "NORAD became dumb for a day" doesn't cut it for many.
What, exactly, was NORAD supposed to have done for this particular situation?

Long before that, though, the United States contributed to the mess that we're in by supporting the mujahedin in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union. The very same people that the United States trained, equipped, and funded turned Afghanistan into a safe-haven for religious nutbags and fanatics. We're now fighting against the people who we helped decades ago.
Welcome to the madness.
Have you ever played Risk?

This was just another example of good old fashioned geo-politics. the enemy of my enemy is my friend -right up until he ceases to serve the intended purpose at which time he ceases to be a friend. Add to that the fact that he will most probably have his own motives and future designs and there you have your sum total.

Enemies are fungible, and always have been.

Meanwhile 10 years of mass coincidences / massive blunders / privacy invasions / wars without end steam roll on and that's all it is...
10 years? Someone has a short memory or has not resided on this planet for long...the above describes the human condition in a nutshell.

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Well, well I see the usual suspects are in for the kill :)

Truth is not a matter of debate, nor is truth a matter of consensus.

Just depends on whos truth you are stuck too.

You can debate the facts all you like, but they aren't going to change.

For yourself maybe.

I wish that you wouldn't let some of these people influence your thinking so much.

That really very cheap comment is just ludicrous. I saw chemtrails over my house and have been aware more and more of really odd cloud formations etc since 2002 onwards, it was at that point i saw online information on it not the other way around so do my friends. One of which lives on the coast and has notices the trails always begin off the coast on into/onto dry land ... and has been seen and documented on countless home videos via online uploads they are worldwide scale.

Just over my home alone I see days of nothing and then a criss-cross scatter all day, some are running parallels and some are literally following one behind another, and in the same section I can see jets flying and seeing contrails, of which are a thumbs length behind and dissipate very quickly. The trails are thick and spread over time they then become a layer, a wish washy 2d flat gloopy mess if you notice an area hit via sunset. I have seen this with my own eyes even just last week and over the last 3 years and more. If this was commercial jets and contrails, it would be all the time, it is not, its specific days (why I have no idea) and in many places the world over, they linger all day and then become transparent milky sheets across the sky once they fall further down all what you see in the un edited home videos of "idoits".

The extraordinary claims side it WHAT EXACTLY is within this and why ... the existence isn't of debate, that is "true" .. take a look in the sky over a 2 week period, check all the home videos world wide .. yet this gets no air time on TV (properly) and people who have rang in get fobbed off with exactly what people "initially" think and that is contrails. Its a tad like "weather balloon" with every UFO sighting, that kind of response.

I'm getting a bit frustrated with you, to be honest. Others can post all the evidence they want, and you outright ignore it. Links, pictures, testimony from experts ... you ignore it all.

I could not care a less what you get annoyed with, it isn't going to go away anytime soon and coupled with the fact Its a relative thing to post in this thread. I ignore it "all", I have read pretty much everything, you seem to speak for me with this, you have no idea that I ignore it ALL. I checked the link you passed me and it speaks of testing and the like in the official sense, I can see that. The thing is for a period I would understand, a test over populated areas consistently for more than 10 years, a hell of a lot of an expense seeing as we are now in a financial crisis. Where are they getting the funding to fly all this worldwide? I check info from the BBC and most mainstream sites I then look at other sites and compare ... I have explained this a long time ago in the other 9/11 thread many times. I understand the official lines I can SEE exactly the points of both of them where else would I be aware of the official story to begin with the weeks it happened? Or any of the official source of subjects. Its not for me to convince people of this or my issue that others cant get their head around that either and get frustrated.

Actually, its possible to "seed" clouds by introducing ice crystals. Condensation only happens when there are things to condense around, sometimes that's something as simple as air turbulence. So when a contrail fails to disappear within a minute or so, it doesn't mean that there must be some sort of chemical in there. Just that you have the appropriate conditions for cirrus clouds to form.

Yes indeed a patented process no less too. Pretty clever ways to produce such things if in the right hands to actually do so. Have you ever checked out the information on cloudbusting?

Off topic its what

about ref Orone energy and Wilhelm Riech, very interesting too, there are a few documentaries about his cloudbusting machine and weather changing, again he got in "trouble" so to speak, yet his work lives on.

The middle ground between this and the gloops thick skyline mess you see with the chemtrails area is that they linger all day and spread wide over time, the time they linger is far from contrails that's the point, they are like 2 separate phenomenon in the same area, which is clear why they get mixed up or treated as the same. AS I say ive seen contrails from jets flying one way with criss crosses chems the other, and I go back to look an hour or more later and the jets long gone and the chems are this wishy washy 2d flat mess from the other jets. I dont need to be convinced from an expert on this, simply keep a watch for yourself you can eventually see the differences. What is the "debate" is the content and reasoning, plus the budget it needs to keep this up.

As regard the chem-trails, the distinction is to acknowledge something other than JUST contrails are forming .. once you get to that stage the debate can begin. If you cant then you are dis believing what your own eyes can tell you by simply looking up and truly looking at it.

What, exactly, was NORAD supposed to have done for this particular situation?

Intercept and stop which is their only existence. This then mixed with a war games exercise of a similar scenario is another coincidence and yet another "stupidity" moment that boggles the mind.

This was just another example of good old fashioned geo-politics. the enemy of my enemy is my friend -right up until he ceases to serve the intended purpose at which time he ceases to be a friend. Add to that the fact that he will most probably have his own motives and future designs and there you have your sum total.

Enemies are fungible, and always have been.

Ah yes, true ... well that's all ok then.

10 years? Someone has a short memory or has not resided on this planet for long...the above describes the human condition in a nutshell.

Yet again, pick a point and jump. I will put this into context for you ... (I seem to do that a lot) .. within the time frame of 9/11 and a large amount of related happenings so to speak in such a short space of time which has = severe privacy and law changes based on this. Clearly theirs a myriad of things going back 100's of years which I wasn't basing it on as that's past and not future or of OUR time relative to the last 10 years that have introduced a lot of this. I like the way you took that and spun it to suggest im a some young "noob" or my condition is wrong, keep it up as it only comes back to you. :)

@Longrange ... your Avatar is worrying me :)

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Who, exactly, is conducting these overflights and what, exactly, is being dispersed?

laughing gas?

How did you get the antidote?

____

You will just have to resign yourself to the fact that by lumping all of these isolated and unrelated developments (9-11/Patriot Act, chipping, fingerprinting, chemical mind control from above -Lord, etc. ) or factors into some kind of grand plan by some sinister un-named NWO clan that you are bound to get some blowback from those of us lacking the proper context, which only you seem to possess.

Or that it could be something else entirely.

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Who, exactly, is conducting these overflights and what, exactly, is being dispersed?

laughing gas?

How did you get the antidote?

I can see from that you haven't really looked into this area much then, the debate is just that. You suggest in words to the effect im young in previous comments but yours is getting a bit childish isn't it, come on ... laughing gas ... yes indeed its all so very funny, hardy har .. but its happening over your head too, hardy har.

You will just have to resign yourself to the fact that by lumping all of these isolated and unrelated developments (9-11/Patriot Act, chipping, fingerprinting, chemical mind control from above -Lord, etc. ) or factors into some kind of grand plan by some sinister un-named NWO clan that you are bound to get some blowback from those of us lacking the proper context, which only you seem to possess.

Well one thing is for sure, you have been made fully aware of it by having this point to make, so that's not a bad thing after all :) Just bear it in mind as the future rolls forward its not that hard to just bear it in mind if nothing else.

BTW: Patriot Act has a direct relation to 9/11 (I assume that's a typo or quick reply without thought), fingerprinting stems from the basis of "security" .. which stems from the basis of terrorism justifying a lot of new types of security, "chemical mind control" are your own words and not the overall picture of chemtrails, but you must have had that thought placed in your mind to post it right :) And BTW blow-back is expected, name calling (all be it indirectly), threat based postings (that PDF linking theorists to some kind of threat) and linking to madness and constantly reiterating that point can be deemed offensive and un-warranted, but hey, that's just my take on it.

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Just what would we do without a quote feature. :whistle:

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Just what would we do without a quote feature. :whistle:

I really dont know, oh the Irony :)

Is this all you can add to this thread rocky!? I mean its a conspiracy thread and all you can do is make it into a quote issue? Are you suggesting we are being undermined here via the quote system? I need more information ... stat. ;):thumbsup::pirate:

I guess to not quote would confuse, and to then quote can confuse. Tell you what, I will spend the rest of my time desperately not trying to quote and see how it pans out :) ... must ... not .... hit ... the .... quote .............. button ..... *gasps for breath* ...

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Just trying to lighten proceedings :)

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Calius, my friend.... Let me use a simple example here. Two plus two will always equal four. Debating that fact, calling it a conspiracy, or saying that two plus two is actually five but the government doesn't want you to know about it, won't change the fact that two plus two does, in fact, equal four. Likewise, this silly hysteria over contrails, claiming that the government is spraying something on people, will not change that fact that they are, in fact, benign products of basic chemistry. You can debate the facts all you want, but you will not suddenly be correct, just because you say it enough. Truth and fact are not matters of concensus or opinion!

That really very cheap comment is just ludicrous.

I said, and I quote, "I really wish you wouldn't let some of these people influence your thinking so much." That's a very nice way of saying - which I've said before - you're clearly a smart guy. And yet, you're letting yourself be influenced by people who are obviously on the stupid side of the scale. You're also missing the point of what NoQuarter is saying in his previous post. He's pointing out some of the ridiculous theories that are out there. He's not saying that you believe in mind-control from the skies. He's saying that those are some of the theories.

Yet again, pick a point and jump. I will put this into context for you ... (I seem to do that a lot) .. within the time frame of 9/11 and a large amount of related happenings so to speak in such a short space of time which has = severe privacy and law changes based on this. Clearly theirs a myriad of things going back 100's of years which I wasn't basing it on as that's past and not future or of OUR time relative to the last 10 years that have introduced a lot of this. I like the way you took that and spun it to suggest im a some young "noob" or my condition is wrong, keep it up as it only comes back to you.

Here, you prove that you are, in fact, very short-sighted. You need to read about history. The changes in the past ten years are minor in comparison with changes that have happened after past catastrophic events. Need I remind you about Japanese internment camps during WWII? Would you like to discuss massive breaches in privacy or freedom? Imagine if the United States started rounding up masses of people of Arabic descent and placing them in internment camps after 9/11. That's exactly what we did to the Japanese during WWII. In the big picture, which you continually miss, changes in security policy since 9/11 are minuscule and much less invasive on privacy than those following past crises.

The middle ground between this and the gloops thick skyline mess you see with the chemtrails area is that they linger all day and spread wide over time, the time they linger is far from contrails that's the point, they are like 2 separate phenomenon in the same area, which is clear why they get mixed up or treated as the same.

What part of this didn't you understand?

...when a contrail fails to disappear within a minute or so, it doesn't mean that there must be some sort of chemical in there. Just that you have the appropriate conditions for cirrus clouds to form.

I could not care a less what you get annoyed with, it isn't going to go away anytime soon and coupled with the fact Its a relative thing to post in this thread. I ignore it "all", I have read pretty much everything, you seem to speak for me with this, you have no idea that I ignore it ALL. I checked the link you passed me and it speaks of testing and the like in the official sense, I can see that. The thing is for a period I would understand, a test over populated areas consistently for more than 10 years, a hell of a lot of an expense seeing as we are now in a financial crisis. Where are they getting the funding to fly all this worldwide? I check info from the BBC and most mainstream sites I then look at other sites and compare ... I have explained this a long time ago in the other 9/11 thread many times. I understand the official lines I can SEE exactly the points of both of them where else would I be aware of the official story to begin with the weeks it happened? Or any of the official source of subjects. Its not for me to convince people of this or my issue that others cant get their head around that either and get frustrated.

You're correct in on sense: It isn't going away. I believe it was Albert Einstein who is attributed to have said something to the effect of, "There are two things that are infinite: the universe, and human stupidity. I'm not sure about the former." No, human stupidity isn't going away any time soon. People who are ignorant of facts and afraid of the unknown are going to concoct impossibly-elaborate theories to help them understand the world around themselves. A line from the movie Men In Black (even though I hate quoting pop culture) sums up the human condition well: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals..." I've found this to be very true. One boob looks up at the sky and says "What are those trails? I don't understand what they are. They must be a government plot to hurt us!" and then a hundred other people join in with him. Why? They join in because they suddenly realize that they don't know what they're seeing, and people are afraid of the unknown. Understand that I'm not calling you dumb, Calius. I'm talking about the bigger notion of conspiracy theories, and the collective human fear of anything that we don't understand, which drives the more wacky of these fanciful, if schizophrenic, tales of government gloom and doom. Asking questions is good, to a point. At some point, though, a rational individual must realize that he's left the realm of productive questioning, and entered the realm of unwarranted paranoia. Unfortunately, it's usually man's peers, rather than the man himself, who first realize that he's made that most fateful leap.

What I can't get my head around is how you come to such outlandish conclusions, Calius. You either ignore, misunderstand, or discard anything that conflicts with the theories that are voiced in this thread. Chemtrails used to spray chemicals down on us? For what purpose? That's a rhetorical question, the answer to which requires common sense to be invoked. There is no purpose. Fact after fact after fact is posted for you, and yet you discount them all. In some cases you completely fail to understand what's posted, Calius. Case in point: Contrails/Chemtrails. It was clearly explained that sometimes, contrails form cirrus clouds. This is what you see wafting through the sky. Yet, completely missed that. You continue to assert that there's something nefarious up there in the sky.

I check info from the BBC and most mainstream sites I then look at other sites and compare ... I have explained this a long time ago in the other 9/11 thread many times.

Why then, aren't you filtering out some of these outlandish theories (reference chemtrails)? Do you arbitrarily assume that every site out there has something valid to add? You're confusing "official" with "plausible and legitimately tested". Reference, again, contrails vs. chemtrails. Your posts lead me to believe that you assume that the "official" word is somehow invalidated, simply because it's posted by what you view as the establishment. You're completely ignoring the fact that rigorous, repeatable experimentation and peer-review has gone into explaining what contrails are, how they form, and how they behave.

I understand that on some level, you just want to debate things. That's fine. Debating the issues, however, won't change facts. Al Qaeda attacked the United States of America on September 11, 2001. Due to their actions, the World Trade Center's famous twin towers collapsed. The U.S. government did not blow up the twin towers. Empirical evidence shows that the twin towers did, in fact, collapse due to massive structural damage caused by the impacts and subsequent fires. No amount of debate will change that. Contrails are benign and harmless, with the noted exception of any engine exhaust. No amount of debate or hysteria will change that fact, either.

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Sorry Rocky ....

Debating that fact, calling it a conspiracy, or saying that two plus two is actually five but the government doesn't want you to know about it, won't change the fact that two plus two does, in fact, equal four.

From the perspective of official lines and the fact that no anomalies have been explained (FULLY) (the domino effect from the cause and surrounding missing links) me thinks its worth holding out on exactly what it adds up to right now. 2 plus 2 = BBC and other news reporting building 7 collapsed BEFORE it did? Theres but one of a few minor kinks in that calculation. Here the BBC rather hidden blog reference this, the only reply to come from the BBC (Yet its a massive mistake to make).. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/02/part_of_the_conspiracy.html

Im sorry Para but simplifying it to how you do wont cut it, and wont cut it for many, and for a very long time.

Here, you prove that you are, in fact, very short-sighted. You need to read about history. The changes in the past ten years are minor in comparison with changes that have happened after past catastrophic events.

You have basically completely contradicted or mis-read what you even quoted, did I not actually state that there's a lot previous to this in history, If I sat here posting history it would be away from the current information and what we were discussing so clearly that's why I mention only within the window of events we are referring too, why wouldn't I.

I agree but the changes that are coming now (via security measures and so on off the back of "events" that are within this 10 year time frame) are global and not country specific, if you cannot see this then that's up to you of course. Well some other dictator did far worse years ago therefore any warning signs now in my current lifetime within my own country doesn't matter, it was worse then in comparison ... great way to look at things. Its worse in comparison to "currently" ... we have the future ongoing too, every catastrophe of whatever nature has its infancy period.

Back to the chemtrails side of it:

One boob looks up at the sky and says "What are those trails? I don't understand what they are. They must be a government plot to hurt us!"

That is but one angle, I think many are just asking ###### is this and why, of which official sources when asked do the "air balloon" trick and will not directly acknowledge a difference, as to whats in it chemically and "why" is still open.

There is no purpose. Fact after fact after fact is posted for you, and yet you discount them all. In some cases you completely fail to understand what's posted, Calius. Case in point: Contrails/Chemtrails. It was clearly explained that sometimes, contrails form cirrus clouds. This is what you see wafting through the sky. Yet, completely missed that. You continue to assert that there's something nefarious up there in the sky.

I do not discount them all, I will tell you why.

Currently officially it is testing, or it is contrails and some that are "lingering" due to as you have said cirrus clouds. I do not think this is a stupid nor incorrect as there are many cloud formations and cirrus clouds are one and I agree they have done tests in the past. The thing that is missing here is the sheer volume/scale and consistent skylines filled with this over populated areas WORLDWIDE, the FACT that I have seen chemtrails that are separate in detail to contrails in the same sky, and also a sky full of "the other" so to speak. I have SEEN it myself.

The patterns are criss crossed, parallels and following behind, not following a pattern like normal jet liners would. You can actually watch (I have seen it myself numerous times) within a clear blue section of sky a sudden white plume being "drawn" as it were from that position (not previous) to over the horizon and this line will then lower into atmosphere and spread like a milky sheet, contrails and the evaporating process that exists as long as engines have in that altitude do not form at will, they trail for the duration of the flight at a certain altitude/temperature. This is completely different to this, and again what you have linked and explained and pointed back to me again does not explain it FULLY based on what has been witnessed by near millions of people daily. Plus the fact that this kind of sky/end result is all over TV / adverts where you just cannot get a clear shot sometimes, yet you go back to 20 or more years and you dont get this "type" of sky.

CIRRUS CLOUDS

cirrus.jpg

CONTRAILS (From 1945 no less)

b17-contrails.jpg

SAME?

IMAGES

Remember worldwide, mainly populated areas (specific), starting in certain locations of sky and seen to also end (on/off). They criss cross and can turn, if this is normal flight patterns of jets and contrails they would be all the time, you can have days of clear sky (suddenly no flights?) and then a evening or day of a mass of it.

I do not automatically assume its some "death gas" nor do I assume I "know" what the content is, I have also seen contrails be longer than others, the difference is how long they stay and how they spread, they do not spread and form cirrus clouds they stay in a line but get wider & wider. You can see a whole section of sky with cirrus clouds above while looking through a say 60 percent opacity "milky sheet" that when over the horizon keeps the same line form but is just larger spread across the sky (or nearer to the eye you could say/lower in atmosphere) with other lines cirrus crossing and low and behind airliners passing over with contrails, all in the same sky section. I do not lump them into the same category, that's the issue.

Reference, again, contrails vs. chemtrails. Your posts lead me to believe that you assume that the "official" word is somehow invalidated, simply because it's posted by what you view as the establishment. You're completely ignoring the fact that rigorous, repeatable experimentation and peer-review has gone into explaining what contrails are, how they form, and how they behave.

I KNOW about contrails para ... that's not the issue, can you please get off the subject of contrails as this isn't "that part" of it. The official word does not explain as I have said, the scale and volume of whats being witnessed "worldwide" (even if it was just testing) until that can be explained and the budget for it justified and the government and news coming out direct then it wont be. If its just contrails and cirrus clouds then they are on steroids right now.

If you cannot see this difference and can only connect them as one thing, then that's surprising to me is all I can say. Can you please stop "telling me" that I do not understand something, or that I ignore something please, you are not exempt from this either.

Due to their actions, the World Trade Center's famous twin towers collapsed. The U.S. government did not blow up the twin towers. Empirical evidence shows that the twin towers did, in fact, collapse due to massive structural damage caused by the impacts and subsequent fires. No amount of debate will change that.

But I hate to drag this in, if they did that they did the pentagon, show me the "evidence" of this large jet smashing into it that they hijacked ... show me it Para, you must have the evidence with you as they did all this, including that, show it. Everyone focused entirely on the towers and collapse .. the aftermath and end results PLUS surrounding that = anomalies which = a bunch of hijackers on a whim with box cutters did all that with a cave master overseeing this who has never been caught to this day and is the "mastermind" of it, sorry to repeat but you have just read to me the 9/11 commission report in summarised form.

Para, let us draw a big fat line under it all, its clear you have absolutely no views on anything remotely to do with conspiracy even to speak of it in terms of "lets just say there might be something in it" will certainly not come from your corner. So when or if I posted something or anyone else, will we have to go through all this again or can it be posted and talked about without knowing you are going to dismiss it as its absolutely and totally clear you do not see things in such a way. I think what im trying to say is, if this was a game thread and you dont like the game how much can you post about not liking it until its groundhog day? You need full evidence and you have the peers to back it all up, that's pretty much in the bag and that's the way things are done. this thread is clearly not about that otherwise with wouldn't be the subject matter of the title, can it be posted without being slammed forever and a day?

You and others come from the fact it can never be, I do not I come from potentially and theirs enough information to put it on the table as worth looking at and not fully accepting official source, and a thread like this "never be" = game over for the point of its existence. Can something be posted that you directly disagree with and we know you will not like it at all and know your views but you choose not to voice it? Or does this threads existence annoy you so much you could never leave it alone? And yet ive been indirectly asked maybe I shouldn't post because I dont have proof, that logic is strange in itself.

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(9-11/Patriot Act,
BTW: Patriot Act has a direct relation to 9/11 (I assume that's a typo or quick reply without thought
Would you like to try again?
Just what would we do without a quote feature. whistle.gif
To say nothing of the Imoticon feature.

But I hate to drag this in, if they did that they did the pentagon, show me the "evidence" of this large jet smashing into it that they hijacked ... show me it Para, you must have the evidence with you as they did all this, including that, show it. Everyone focused entirely on the towers and collapse .. the aftermath and end results PLUS surrounding that = anomalies which = a bunch of hijackers on a whim with box cutters did all that with a cave master overseeing this who has never been caught to this day and is the "mastermind" of it, sorry to repeat but you have just read to me the 9/11 commission report in summarised form.

4 separate groups aboard 4 separate flights...each group responsible for a separate action of a combined operation which should be a fairly simple concept to grasp.

Para, let us draw a big fat line under it all, its clear you have absolutely no views on anything remotely to do with conspiracy even to speak of it in terms of "lets just say there might be something in it" will certainly not come from your corner. So when or if I posted something or anyone else, will we have to go through all this again or can it be posted and talked about without knowing you are going to dismiss it as its absolutely and totally clear you do not see things in such a way. You need full evidence and you have the peers to back it all up, that's pretty much in the bag and that's the way things are done. this thread is clearly not about that otherwise with wouldn't be the subject matter of the title, can it be posted without being slammed forever and a day?

I read the topic title as "Conspiracy Theories" full stop, as if soliciting replies from both sides of the divide, as evidenced by the OP.

Is this, or is this not an open forum with all members free to determine for themselves whether to participate, or not?

You and others come from the fact it can never be...
False.

Some of us just require a little more than pie in the sky wonderings to go off all half-cocked.

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Again, you read it but you didn't understand it.

Before airplanes, cirrus clouds were a sign of a peculiar meteorological trend. That is, since they are ice crystals at or above 26,000 feet, you needed a source for the moisture that could then freeze. However, with the increasing popularity of air travel, cruising altitudes at or above 26,000 feet, and the increasing number of flights into and out of heavily populated areas, you see cirrus clouds more and more because the airplanes are providing the moisture.

Now, obviously, a single airplane cannot provide enough moisture for cirrostratus clouds, but what you may be watching is a process called freeze distillation. Basically, by providing the seed, more ice can freeze out of the atmosphere. You can test this at home by putting a bottle of vodka in a pitcher of water, then putting it in your freezer. Just like that, all you'll get is cold vodka, no ice will form. But if you drop a few ice cubes into the vodka, over a few days the ice cubes will grow in size, and the alcohol content of the liquid will increase. So it goes with clouds.

You can also tell a lot about upper atmosphere turbulence based on how much the contrails or cirrus clouds get spread out. As a mountaineer, that's useful information. I don't really want to be up high if I have good reason to believe that there are high winds up there too. Of course, that seems silly if I'm only going to about half that altitude, but keep in mind that the stratosphere, where cirrus clouds occur, is typically from about 10,000 feet to about 35,000 feet, and turbulence tends to occur the whole way through.

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Para, let us draw a big fat line under it all, its clear you have absolutely no views on anything remotely to do with conspiracy even to speak of it in terms of "lets just say there might be something in it" will certainly not come from your corner. So when or if I posted something or anyone else, will we have to go through all this again or can it be posted and talked about without knowing you are going to dismiss it as its absolutely and totally clear you do not see things in such a way. I think what im trying to say is, if this was a game thread and you dont like the game how much can you post about not liking it until its groundhog day? You need full evidence and you have the peers to back it all up, that's pretty much in the bag and that's the way things are done. this thread is clearly not about that otherwise with wouldn't be the subject matter of the title, can it be posted without being slammed forever and a day?

You and others come from the fact it can never be, I do not I come from potentially and theirs enough information to put it on the table as worth looking at and not fully accepting official source, and a thread like this "never be" = game over for the point of its existence. Can something be posted that you directly disagree with and we know you will not like it at all and know your views but you choose not to voice it? Or does this threads existence annoy you so much you could never leave it alone? And yet ive been indirectly asked maybe I shouldn't post because I dont have proof, that logic is strange in itself.

I'm sorry, Calius. I was under the assumption that this forum was a public discussion forum, and that thread was posted for evidence and discussion both for and against these theories. Clearly, I was mistaken. I'll try not to offend your delicate sensibilities again. You seem to want validation of your ideas, not discussion both for and against. You should have called it the "Conspiracy Believers' Thread" or maybe "Pro-Conspiracy Theory Thread" or something to that effect. You don't seem to appreciate people posting views contrary to your own. Not once have I ever directly or indirectly suggested that you not post if you don't have proof. I have only suggested that you reconsider posting controversial ideas if you cannot take criticism or rebuttal of your ideas. It won't matter what evidence anyone posts, you're going to believe what you want, even when that belief is clearly unreasonable. So, enjoy your conspiracy thread. I'd hate to upset you any further.

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^

That sounds so conspiratorial.

...

Any benefits?

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Any benefits?
No...not even an avatar, but you do get the time honoUred traditions of loyalty and honoUr from being in a gang. ;)

DS

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Thanks, DS! Do I get to wear a fedora, smoke a cigar, and carry a baseball bat?

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Thanks, DS! Do I get to wear a fedora, smoke a cigar, and carry a baseball bat?
No, the obligatory violin case will do.

DS

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Thanks, DS! Do I get to wear a fedora, smoke a cigar, and carry a baseball bat?
No, the obligatory violin case will do.

DS

Oh, fantastic!

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I thought this would lighten the gloom in here and, get us back on track. :thumbsup:

British government builds spy centre to track international travel. For me, the odd thing about it is that not only is it not in the London area, but it's in an industrial park, slap bang in the middle of the biggest council estate in Greater Manchester

Spy Centre

DS

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Honestly DS, this move doesn't surprise me. The UK already seem to monitor so many facets of British life. We read about how there are cameras everywhere in Britain.

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The UK already seem to monitor so many facets of British life.
Now who's being the conspiracy theorist? :rolleyes: Don't always believe what you read. That's media spin and it's supposed to be mainly inner city London.

As for monitoring...in the last two years, U.S. immigration at airports I've been to, run the passport, then the green card, then take a forefinger print of each hand and...take a digital photo of you from a webcam all at the same time. Whilst doing this, the customs officer is looking over an LCD monitor in front of him. Of course, I'll never get to see what he's Iooking at. Now that's what I call monitoring. That's far removed from my pre 9/11 U.S. airport experiences of dozy guards sat on plastic chairs in the airport terminals.

DS

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Well, we only know what the news tells us over here about the UK, my friend. :) Either way, it doesn't surprise me. I'm not particularly bothered by it, either.

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4 separate groups aboard 4 separate flights...each group responsible for a separate action of a combined operation which should be a fairly simple concept to grasp.

Read what I posted ref the plane I was referring too, prove the plane hit (an actual large jet) you get a cookie. If not then its open debate and if its open debate its not a closed case, etc and so on.

You should have called it the "Conspiracy Believers' Thread" or maybe "Pro-Conspiracy Theory Thread" or something to that effect. You don't seem to appreciate people posting views contrary to your own.

Its not really about views contrary to my own, you must have ignored every-time I replied to that notion that you brought up. What I'm saying is, every time a conspiracy gets posted from here on in (which is what would be posted hence its title), then its pretty obvious where you will come from with a reply. I wonder when you or some others would get to a point of thinking ... hmmmm, this is odd lets look into this a little further. I think that it will never happen, and that was all my point is.

Case in point, I post about chems, you post 1 page with scientific references and shoot it down and others. And yet do you honestly believe its just an observation by paranoids that have no clue with tons of information referencing this and in some way that carry's no weight to it one bit. Would you ever look into it on the basis you dont believe it but its worth seeing what its all about, just in case the scientific data/source is maybe not fully reliable? I personally think you would not, its very clear you would not which is fair enough. I dont work that way, I see BOTH .. and there is no harm in that way of working. I personally can see the differences in the phanomina of what is scientifically standard effects and cloud formations and a mass session of spraying in the sky, you will not, you will "see" the norm ... fair enough.

It won't matter what evidence anyone posts, you're going to believe what you want, even when that belief is clearly unreasonable.

Your view, which realy sets up a debate session doesn't it. Which leads me to ...

I have only suggested that you reconsider posting controversial ideas if you cannot take criticism or rebuttal of your ideas.

A conspiracy thread is going to hit a controversial subject or point no matter what, so in essence to reconsider the inevitable would mean not to post, that being my point.

If for any moment you think I get upset or sit typing shaking fists or something you have me so wrong :) Mafia .... haha that dig make me smile :) The only time I get annoyed is quick sarcastic replies, mentions of mental issues, calling idiots and all that side of it really. Personally or not insinuations are rife and tied to this subject matter so its hard to not be tarred with a brush so to speak even if you not being direct.

@Petsfed:

First off all thank you, that post was great. the only point im making isn't that this is wrong, or the science is bad .. and natural or similar. But what im seeing and many are large amounts in "sections" of sky of not Cyrus type forms but flat 2d milky sheets that when under a sunset look like a contaminated mess with many lines of flights blatantly criss crossing. For this to be usual flight paths they are far too well structured and happen in bursts or over times at night too. Again clear days then heavy days and can happen on sunny weather. The weather here in UK has been full on sun 29 degrees. Temp changes are not frequents and so far Ive seen a asky full of it, then 2 days blue and standard clouds, then full again ... and all im saying is, I can see a separation from natural and standard flights and "this other area". I'm just reserving the right to understand a difference (my view) is the main thing.

Well, we only know what the news tells us over here about the UK, my friend. :) Either way, it doesn't surprise me. I'm not particularly bothered by it, either.

Do you mean, not bothered as its UK based, or not bothered in general about surveillance by the state of its own people?

I ask that becuase theirs plenty of this spreading to other countries and the U.S is also included. Before you ask im not talking as "them & us" Im speaking in terms of globally (you must have heard that term thrown around in political circles by now, especially now).

This is a good example although slightly different, I love the name "City Watcher.com" ... nice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pri8JQ1nZck

The site doesn't show here I did try to look, although I found this about employees getting chipped:

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=34751

So does this bother anyone? Is this good, and is it unreasonable to think this is probably the worst thing you could do as a human being? Sell it as cool, make it a permanent feature later. If there is no conspiracy then there's really no need for this particular type of tech.

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Read what I posted ref the plane I was referring too, prove the plane hit (an actual large jet) you get a cookie. If not then its open debate and if its open debate its not a closed case, etc and so on.
I posted this in June last year, soon after it was released. Someone's recently uploaded a clearer version. Worth watching with and accepting what the military and law enforcement witnesses state they saw.

The Pentagon Attack

DS

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