Graw 2 is slowly dieing

[ruggbutt]

I play every night and it's close to dead. Shame really.

[Mysticaly]

I haven't played graw2 mp enough to really have formed an opinion. I started playing it again just a couple of days ago, and I must say that I am really starting to love this game.. Usually I love games that are fast phased simply because of my quake days, or years to be more exact (old habit is hard to....)

The phase that is in graw2 suits me perfectly in this game, actually I am very surprised that I like it so much.

I have played allot of HH the last weeks and I really love it.

Graw2 has it flaws and they are all pointed out in this thread, but even tough the flaws I'm really starting to love it.

CoD4 demo sucked in my opinion, the demo is one of the most linear demos I've played in a real long time! also a game with so called "perks" or powerups or whatever that at the same time tries to look realistic with real weapons doesn't make any sense to me, CoD4 is really going to be a run 'n' gun game...just wait and see.

Edit: one thing that contributes big to the fact that hardly no new players starts to play MP is simple. They go online and gets owned real hard constantly... The majority of the players on line now these days are old GR/graw/graw2 players who knows this game almost as good as the palm of there hands, and this is the same on pretty much every server.

The new "recruit" will simply be owned so hard that they will be scared off, heck new players hardly ever get to fire there rifle before getting killed.

Obviously these players should try out coop before heading out on a RvsA server, but they don't. Check out this thread to see what I mean: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2...13/m/5891091306

Possibly if you notice someone getting owned real hard all the time you should advice them to start with coop (in a nice way of-course) or they will pretty soon start to hate graw2 totally.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Mysticaly

[ROCO*AFZ*]

I haven't played graw2 mp enough to really have formed an opinion. I started playing it again just a couple of days ago, and I must say that I am really starting to love this game.. Usually I love games that are fast phased simply because of my quake days, or years to be more exact (old habit is hard to....)

The phase that is in graw2 suits me perfectly in this game, actually I am very surprised that I like it so much.

I have played allot of HH the last weeks and I really love it.

Graw2 has it flaws and they are all pointed out in this thread, but even tough the flaws I'm really starting to love it.

CoD4 demo sucked in my opinion, the demo is one of the most linear demos I've played in a real long time! also a game with so called "perks" or powerups or whatever that at the same time tries to look realistic with real weapons doesn't make any sense to me, CoD4 is really going to be a run 'n' gun game...just wait and see.

Edit: one thing that contributes big to the fact that hardly no new players starts to play MP is simple. They go online and gets owned real hard constantly... The majority of the players on line now these days are old GR/graw/graw2 players who knows this game almost as good as the palm of there hands, and this is the same on pretty much every server.

The new "recruit" will simply be owned so hard that they will be scared off, heck new players hardly ever get to fire there rifle before getting killed.

Obviously these players should try out coop before heading out on a RvsA server, but they don't. Check out this thread to see what I mean: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2...13/m/5891091306

Possibly if you notice someone getting owned real hard all the time you should advice them to start with coop (in a nice way of-course) or they will pretty soon start to hate graw2 totally.

Part of that is due to the mindset. They want to play, get action and own people fast. They don't take the time to learn the new maps and frankly with some of the clans and players out there, they won't get the chance.

This sticks them with single player or co-op to practice with. But the maps are different then MP... so again they have a disadvantage.

GRAW2 MP isn't dead, It's just limited to about 7 major servers. Part of why it didn't take off is gamespy. The server browser sucks and with the last patch we can't see the players in the server. Part is because you can't read the MOTD anywhere but doing a server info... so you never know the rules and players never know the rules of the server. Part is because not many ladders were created. This was due to GRAW1 and the low expectations of GRAW2. Part is because this GAME was never hyped for the PC. There was no antispation... or limited. There was until now also no tournaments... ubi never sponsered any. and finally... there hasn't been any expansion packs for GRAW1 or 2 to get players interested once again.

Oh and i forgot to mention... part is the server controls... at least in GRAW2 we got kick and ban... but no saving or loading of scripts on the fly? no auto download of maps?? cmon.

[Toniezz]

10+ members in our group are still playing GRAW 2. They excepted it's misses and play the game for it's 'hits'. They have fun, as gaming is really about. Most are currently playing ArmA but also amongst them are a lot of occassional GRAW 2 gamers and vice versa. To me, that means GRAW 2 isn't dead. Sure a lot of new games will start competing with GRAW 2 over playing time. In the mean time GRAW 2 is a lot of fun for many gamers.

The silence around UBI and GRIN on the PC version and some smaller comments about a patch ready/WIP give me some reason to believe the PC will find some support in the near future. But hey, I am an optimist so don't beat me for it

Game On!

[NoQuarter]

Not quite sure why members still believe a single patch/map pack can resurrect the woefully underpowered (Diesel) gem that :AW* is.

Take it or leave it for what is is.

In the meantime I'll be Scud-hunting in the Valle de Carmen while the patch-watch (death-watch) continues.

Courage.

[Joseph_Q]

IMHO the main reason why GRAW 2 died is fact that Ubi couldnt decide to whom they adresing this game. Arcade players didnt like it because it hasnt jumping invcluded, the weapons are leathal (1-2 shots=kill) etc And tac sim shoters fans didnt like it because it still has lots of arcade features like ability to shot ultra acurate with 50.cal sniper rifle while walking, quick scope thing etc etc Next time Ubi decide to created title like that they shoult make up their mind if they want to create realistic tac shoter or action packed arcade shoter because it is very very difficult to create something in between.

[krise madsen]

IMHO the main reason why GRAW 2 died is fact that Ubi couldnt decide to whom they adresing this game. Arcade players didnt like it because it hasnt jumping invcluded, the weapons are leathal (1-2 shots=kill) etc And tac sim shoters fans didnt like it because it still has lots of arcade features like ability to shot ultra acurate with 50.cal sniper rifle while walking, quick scope thing etc etc Next time Ubi decide to created title like that they shoult make up their mind if they want to create realistic tac shoter or action packed arcade shoter because it is very very difficult to create something in between.

QFT

Respectfully

krise madsen

[FI_FlimFlam]

While I agree with your points regarding the game not "fitting" in traditional gamer sterotypes, I think the blame that you are leveling at UBI is somewhat misplaced. I don't think the UBI managers were micromanaging the development to that level. It's doubtful that they got to that much nitty-gritty. Maybe with the jumping but I doubt it. UBI gave GRIN the basic structure back in GRAW1. They greenlighted GRAW2 and probably to keep things the way they were with "imiprovements". However, GRIN is the developer and probably is the entity responsible for the sniper weapon characteristics and all the other good and bad details. Blame UBI for the storyline, the loss of squads ([GR] spuads - blam GRIN for the loss of GRAW team squads in MP/COOP), and the Mitchell storyline.

GRIN added some good things with the framework laid down by UBI. Yet the implementation was decidely lacking in too many area to be give the game legs like GR, or many of the Rainbow games up to Ravenshield had. Simple fact is that players and admins have to WORK to much to just play the game they way they want to compared to other games in the series and that has turned MANY people away.

I personally think the player movement, sounds, weapon handling (except the GL and snipers) are some of the best that I have seen. Sure I wish the recoil was toned down just a smidge and the damage upped just a tiny bit on most of the weapons, but I can live with where they are currently. The problem for me is the implementation of the rest of the package and that is what has killed it for me. They all but ruined COOP, hosting became worse not easier or better, squads were removed reducing teamwork in pub servers, and I would have preferred NOT to have kits. They may have added multiple objectives to the gameplay, but that is just about the only clear positive change to the old gameplay I can think of (RvA is nice too). I personally wished they would have improved GRAW1 on the technical end rather than the nearly complete redesign of the MP.

So where are we now? Players leaving, servers going down, and interst is lost - even by many of the "hardliners" that stuck it though GRAW with the hopes of something even better. That something better never materialized for ALOT of people. Sure there are going to be people playing the game for some time but it's going to be very few. They game will never really die until all the servers are gone and no one plays it anymore. However, it's quickly leaving the radar for many many people and if Colin was right about GRIN not going forward with the GR series, this last elusive patch is probably the last official thing players will see from the game support and maybe content-wise. It saddens me, but I do believe that the game is fading quickly and will soon not be priority for many people who initially believed in it.

Edited November 9, 2007 by FI_FlimFlam

[krise madsen]

While I agree with your points regarding the game not "fitting" in traditional gamer sterotypes, I think the blame that you are leveling at UBI is somewhat misplaced e.c.t.

Good points.

I would like to amend my above post:

I basically agree with Joseph_Q that GRAW1/2 got stuck halfway between the linear acade shooter and the tac-sim, and that it is the most fundamental problem. To the tac-sim grog, GRAW1/2 is a failed, linear tac-sim. To the traditional FPS gamer, it's a slowed down shooter. The "quick and dirty" solution (and possibly a finanically sound one) would have been to simply port the 360 versions.

However (I've posted so previously and really should have paid more attention this time), I can't specifically point the finger at GRIN or UBI, as I have no idea who decided what. Maybe UBI gave GRIN a free hand and the Swedes are all to blame. Maybe UBI micromanaged GRIN all the way and it's the Frenchies we should point the finger at. I don't know and it doesn't really matter anyway.

GRIN is obviously a good developer. It's quite obvious that they've listened carefully to the feedback and have made considerable improvements from GRAW1 to GRAW2. As FI_FlimFlam notes, some elements of GRAW are indeed very, very good and at least as good as anything seen elswhere. The problem is, GRAW just isn't a tac-sim. It's a traditional FPS with pretensions.

Whomever made the decisions just simply didn't get the point of a tac-sim. They didn't have the tac-sim mindset. Allow me to emphasize this point: Mindset, mindset, mindset! It's essential. Everything springs from that. GRAW2 had improvements because GRIN are good game developers. But it still isn't a tac-sim because nobody in charge had the tac-sim mindset. Any improvements that made it more "tac-sim-ish" were the result of, for lack of a better word, dumb luck. Without that mindset, GRAW was essentially doomed (at least as a tac-sim) from the start.

Respectfully

krise madsen

PS: Just to make sure everyone got it: MINDSET! MINDSET! MINDSET!

[Whiskey]

Whats wrong with GRAW ,its a great game compared to CoD4 what i call a cartoon like game where u only run and gun with no sense.

[Scubaman3D]

Whats wrong with GRAW ,its a great game compared to CoD4 what i call a cartoon like game where u only run and gun with no sense.

I think most of the controversy is among [GR] players feeling left behind. GRAW looks prettier but plays crappy compared to [GR]. Its that simple.

GRAW isn't as linear as COD, granted - but its not replayable either. Once through the campaign was more than enough and I found myself looking forward to the ending of a lame story that dosn't make any sense.

So yeah, but I think GRAW will die because there are no mods or interest in making mods in the community.

[WhiteKnight77]

FlimFlam, you have posted a well thought out post about why GRAW/GRAW2 have or are dying along with what the problems were so someone can take that information with them to create a better GR game in the future. This is the kind of post that needs to be made instead of the normal run of the mill GRAW2 is dying post. Thank you.

[Hammer]

Whats wrong with GRAW ,its a great game compared to CoD4 what i call a cartoon like game where u only run and gun with no sense.

I think most of the controversy is among [GR] players feeling left behind. GRAW looks prettier but plays crappy compared to [GR]. Its that simple.

GRAW isn't as linear as COD, granted - but its not replayable either. Once through the campaign was more than enough and I found myself looking forward to the ending of a lame story that dosn't make any sense.

So yeah, but I think GRAW will die because there are no mods or interest in making mods in the community.

I think there was plenty of intrest in the modding side, It was just to dam difficult and frustrating and the tempremental editor didnt help

Edited November 10, 2007 by Hammer

[Whiskey]

Maybe people who can mod are back when they realese how good GRAW is when thet try another games ,and GRAW its not hard to mod eather so what is the problem.Think its the old maps all miss and not the orginal GR .Have tried to play GR1 and its not the same game as in old days because GRAW is a better game.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

everyday i play COD 4, i start to appreciate Grin more.

[RAbbi_74]

GRAW2 will die (appears to be on life support already) for the PC (but live long and glorious for the Xbox 360) well before its time.

I DISAGREE respectfully about Ubi's involvement in the creative process that left us with a product that felt like a third-time-over photocopy of a good shooter. They called the shots at the top. They determined the necessity to include al the stupid NARCOM banter and the cheesy cut scenes and whatnot. That required effort on GRIN's part to implement. They determined many features, which weren't necessarily written by Ubisoft's folks, and so indirectly micromanaged GRIN's efforts in development.

And they suck.

GRIN's alright, but this franchise should never have been let out of RSE's house. Hindsight being 20/20 and all...

I'm sure the next Prince of Persia will rock, though...

[Invisible]

Cod4 sucks, graw2 rocks,but the support sucks (

I am not going to buy any ubi title,until farther support for graw2 .

[SteelHack]

First off I want to PRAISE the GRIN team.... I cant say how much I appreciate them surfing this site, and discusing their game and letting us play on their playground...I think they did a really good job on making the game that both they and UBI wanted to make.

That being said...unfortunately I dont really feel it was the game that the HARDCORE [GR] guys wanted to be made.

When Tom Clancy co-founded RSE, he helped create the game we know and love....Team based, tactic based, the old old "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast" type of game.......Then came the HALO's of the world....and while they are GREAT GAMES...the problem is....they SOLD SO MANY COPIES...that the UBI's of the world said...we need to make our stuff more like that.

So instead of making a "HALO CLONE" they tried to steer current titles in that direction....trying to appeal to the broadest group of people as possible.....so instead of getting a GREAT RUN n GUN game...or a GREAT TACSIM...you end up with a mediocre halfbreed....Jack of all trades, master of none.

I think it was Bo, or someone from GRIN....but I could be wrong....back before GRAW came out..or maybe slightly after...I cant recall.....but the message was basically that the a game needs to continue to develop....that people dont want to just buy some updated version of the same old thing.....and while that is true to a point....the GREAT CLASSIC COKE campaign fits this to a T.

The PC Ghost Recon Customer...does indeed want that SAME OLD THING.....in that we want the PRODUCT LINE of what Coke was selling....Coke, Diet Coke......and then next year...what we DONT WANT is Sprite, and Cherry Coke....we want Coke, Diet Coke, AND SPRITE AND CHERRY COKE.....we THE HARDCORE TAC SIM [GR] player want what we had....with updated graphics, and sound......We want the ability to go prone and aim downward...AND the ability to slide and dive (GREAT FEATURE BY THE WAY).....We want the ability to ACTIVATE MODS and CUSTOMIZE CHARACTERS that look better than they did before.

I understand the business sense....the hardcore market is smaller...hence not as much cash....the hardcore market will mod and play a game for YEARS (hence my [GR] lan party next weekend) hence not as much cash.

But where I feel they are missing the boat is the basic EXPANSION PACK....If an [GR] expansion pack was released tomorrow....it would sell like hotcakes....New maps....new missions....throw in a few new bad guys, and vehicles....sprinkle in a few new weapons....and we would all be rushing out to buy it.

If I were a game developer.....You make Ghost Recon...right in time for XMAS...then by Jan. you have EXPANSION PACK 1 ready to go...10-12 new maps.....a handful of missions....then in Feb or March...EXPANSION PACK 2 comes out.....Now you are getting not only the $50 for the first game...but another $20 a piece from the next 5 or 6 Expansion packs.....and that honestly could go on forever with a game that gets the following of an [GR]. Tokyo, Seoul, Iraq, Mexico, Honduras, Cuba, Canada, Greenland.......You get a few of the MODDERS to pump out map packs...and it would not even matter if the missions were virtually identical...(A terrorist group has taken hostages...AGAIN) Thats what the Ghosts are sent in to handle...save hostages, gather intel, ....one mission its SAVE THE HOSTAGE...the next its...ESCORT THE DEFECTOR....its the exact same thing...with a different spin..and most importantly NEW MAPS to learn and enjoy.

Ok...I think I am just starting to ramble...so I will go LOL

HACK

[IrishStout]

I would say 98.9% I

The only thing I am unsure of is based on rights and regulations, could someone other then UBI develope such a game. If so and you are small up and coming dev team and want to get your name out there.. this seems like a somewhat easy process.. go buy GR1. get your dev's to play it.. quickly look at what works with GRAW 2.. put minds together and sell.. once you sell your first 1 million copies in the first week.. then move on to bigger and bright stuff.. that or gt bought out and spend your millions...

Man I wish I had more ambition and new some guys in the field..

[BuFFaLo-SouLjaH]

Well, I will like to say that Cod 4 is not Graw 2 but I LIKE IT! I will still play

Graw 2, but will not enter the tourney now since all my time is being spent trying to rank up and learn my combat moves for Cod 4. I am a real gamer and take pride in not getting PWNED hehe. I will not play Graw 2 until a new patch is out. If the game is not fixed and no anticheat, I must say bye. I have played since Rainbow Six. I loved Rouge Spear and still do. All I wanted a game developer to do was make a better dub. Some get it and some don't; or some just don't know how to make something good, BETTER. This is Grin's time to show their stuff and I am waiting......................zzzzzzzzz

Buffy

Edited November 10, 2007 by BuFFaLo-SouLjaH

[wildbill]

Maybe people who can mod are back when they realese how good GRAW is when thet try another games ,and GRAW its not hard to mod eather so what is the problem.Think its the old maps all miss and not the orginal GR .Have tried to play GR1 and its not the same game as in old days because GRAW is a better game.

I agree here, this game is really much better with the looks, and gameplay is decent. Comparing it to [GR]. I have gone back to play [GR] and it just does not have the appeal that GRAW 2 has, i just love the intense action, gernade explositions and the firing of weapons is quite wicked....this i love about graw. I strongly feel that if we get some beautiful maps and some surprises with a map package, that i feel most of us would purchase, that would include multiplayer, THEN we'd be off and running BIG TIME. I think that this would be a shame .....and waste if there where not something coming down the pike.

Bill

[NoFears]

I have been playing Ghost Recon (PC) since start and I still enjoy the game very much, there are not so many games on the market that can replace or compete with the Ghost Recon – series, my big hope is that GRIN and Ubisoft releases more great maps and other good stuff for GRAW2 so it will last and live longer on the game servers and for us all GR fans.

Big thanks to GRIN and to Ubisoft for a great game!!

See you all on the game servers!

NoFears

[kilbil]

Studying the guns in cod4 makes you realize what a great job grin did on the graw2 . I dont think we will ever hear the like again sound wise.

[Cell]

Studying the guns in cod4 makes you realize what a great job grin did on the graw2 . I dont think we will ever hear the like again sound wise.

I agree, GRAW1/2 has amazing gun & explosion sounds. Haven't seen the likes of it in any game.

[WytchDokta]

So, is it Game Over?

What you looking at me like that for? Somebody did say Hardcore [GR].... OK, so the link left out the [GR], but then again there wasn't any [GR] in GRAW2 in the first place (except for the [GR] MP mode but I'm not talking about that)