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Dissapointed with GRAW2 PC

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not even close man. Those 2 engines you mentioned are for DX10 and this is still for DX9 only engine.

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No COOP or [GR] game type in the BETA, so I wasn't very happy from the start.

I sure hope it's included in the demo.

The reason for the Beta was mainly to test out the new game mode, RvsA. That is also why it was closed, like betas usually are if the developer need feedback, and not a demo. TDM was thrown in as an extra as it's a simple thing to add.

Any demo will also be limited to only a small part of the game of course. What part or parts, only the future can tell.

Edited by Wolfsong

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Can anyone seriously believe a PC would not be able to run the X360 of GRAW2 if there was a PC version made available?

I would have to say YES, most gamer PCs would not be able to run the 360 version they way it looks on the 360. Dynamic shadows for example are a huge resource hogs.

But those who have PC's with specs similar to the 360 would of course be able to run it. Not an expert here on exact 360 specs, but it has like 3x 3GHz CPU and a decent GPU which gets help from the CPUs, even if it does use shared memory. Memory can only get you that far... it helps for texture quality and some for speed. But multiple props helps with handling more batches faster.

But if there was a version made available to PC it would have been adjusted so it could be played with lower specs, I'm sure. By adding LODs and different levels of texture quality, post effect quality, effect quality, lightmapping as much as possible and all other things that are needed for a game to be usable on a wide array of different PC specs. So then it would be NO to your question, all PC would be able to run the 360 version AFTER it has been adjusted.

This knowledge is what makes me wonder what Crysis will require to run at the level seen in the demos shown, which full dynamic lighting among other things.

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X360 specs according to TeamXbox:

Custom IBM PowerPC-based CPU:

3 symmetrical cores running at 3.2 GHz each

2 hardware threads per core; 6 hardware threads total

1 VMX-128 vector unit per core; 3 total

128 VMX-128 registers per hardware thread

1 MB L2 cache

Custom ATI Graphics Processor:

500 MHz

10 MB embedded DRAM

48-way parallel floating-point dynamically-scheduled shader pipelines

Unified shader architecture

Memory:

512 MB GDDR3 RAM

700 MHz DDR

Unified memory architecture

With SLi systems and dual procs (IIRC there are dual core dual procs available too) available for PC, high end PCs definately could run GRAW2 for the X360. Most PC gamers run video cards with as much VRAM (or more if in SLi) than the entire X360 has. Midrange PCs could possibly run it, even if at a low framerate (better if shadows could be turned off).

Still, I dislike the way the entire GR series has gone and may not even purchase it for the PC. I await a game from a small company that will blow everything else out of the water.

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That just proves my point. Most PC gamers don't have that CPU power to match 3 3,2GHz HT CPUs. I would say only a few percent does as it's way more then a midrange PC in use today. It may be a midrange PC of what can be bought today, but that's not what gamers have in their homes. So it depends on how you define midrange. I would love that the midrange in the stores would be the same as midrange in the homes as it would open up the PC market for much better running games.

EDIT:

Oh, and you don't get more VRAM in SLi, it's only mirroring on both cards. You "only" get the added benefit of 2 GPUs. So then you only need a Core 2 Duo 3Ghz+ CPU to be at 360 level, or maybe a 2GHz Quad Core. ;)

Edited by Wolfsong

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Nice read on all your posts Wolfsong. I think you have a excellent grasp of today's hardware realities. And that is hard to do considering the details of the new gen consoles and the moving target that is PC.

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Is the xGRAW2 engine vastly more advanced than UE3 or Crytek 2? :S

in your dreams lol.

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The 360 hardware is decent for a console but modern PC hardware runs cycles around it and leave it in the dust. When a game is properly ported from the 360 to the PC, it will run faster, with higher AA/AF and resolution on a modern PC compared to the 360. I have a C2D at 3.2Ghz and a 8800GTX and I tested Test Drive Unlimited both on the PC and 360 and on the PC I could play it at 1280x1024 with 16AF, 16AA fully maxed out and it never dropped below 50fps, and my CPU cores were running at around 70%. The 360 runs at 1280x720, with 2AA (maybe 4AA but it looked blurry) and no AF, and it was capped at 30fps and the HDR looked worse as well.

Another good port is Oblivion, which runs like a dream on a 8800GTX and looks truely next-gen with Qarls Texture Pack no.3.

Of course its not fair because my PC has far more raw power in almost all areas but it shows how fast PC hardware caught up and overtook the 360 and PC´s have a much larger overhead to overcome as well (O.S. API, poor ports etc.).

BTW, you can´t compare the CPU in PCs with the "in-order" triple core CPU in the 360. It is not a good general purpose CPU and highly lacks in areas where PC CPUs shine but it does a good job when code is written for its special architecture.

The 360 hardware looks impressive on paper (and its marketing made it larger than it is as well) but when you look at the games, which usually have poor AI, simplied physics, limited resolution (1280x720), no filtering, limited AA, small levels, heavy LODing, low resolution textures (which are usally hidden with motion blur, or Depth of Field effects), it actually shows how poor the system is compared to modern PC hardware and the 360 is suppose to last another 4 years. Not very impressive to me. ;)

Sure I have a slight PC bias and I´m known to be a graphics and picture quality fan but I do own a 360 and I tried to be as objective as I could be but I did want to show that the 360 is not "all that great" how some people make it out to be and surely not how its marketing claims it either but in the end you get what you pay for. ;)

Final words: Proper ports from the 360 to PC will run and look better on modern PC that was bought in 2006 or later.

Edited by agentkay

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agentkay, your completly right. The differences are more then noticable and ports will be the same or better in terms of quality if the developers take the time to port it right.

Nothing unfair or unbalanced about PC is always evolving and Consoles just cant keep up.

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Still, I dislike the way the entire GR series has gone and may not even purchase it for the PC. I await a game from a small company that will blow everything else out of the water.

Bravo. Here here and all that brewhaha.

I as well am waiting in giddy anticipation for the same thing to happen.

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agentkay, your completly right. The differences are more then noticable and ports will be the same or better in terms of quality if the developers take the time to port it right.

Nothing unfair or unbalanced about PC is always evolving and Consoles just cant keep up.

But neither can developers, reasonably -- It's moronic to make your game for next year's top 2%, so, thanks to the consistency of consoles we'll see more steady framerates and more impressive middle-range engines for another year or so.

But seriously, who cares? FFxii looks a hell of a lot better than the majority of 360 games, and I don't think anyone would argue that the ps2 has competitive hardware. I'm pretty sure many of it's textures were 128s. Let's stop squabbling over hdr and shadows and ask that people start hiring better painters.

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Final words: Proper ports from the 360 to PC will run and look better on modern PC that was bought in 2006 or later.

This is the essential part of your entire post. The majority of the PC gamers did not by a new computer in 2006 or 2007, although I would have loved if they did as it would make things easier for developers. Like I said in the first post I did on this subject, only a few percent of the PC gamers have such new hardware and they would of course be able to play it. But that is also why the the AVERAGE home PC can't run a game made for the 360.

Could you take the 360 version of GRAW2 and make it run on a P4 3,0GHz, with 1GB RAM and a GeForce 7600GS for example, which is pretty much a midrange gamer PC in use today? I think not. As said before, you can't compare console hardware with the latest PC hardware, then of course the PC will always win unless the console is brand new, you have to compare the console with the current most common PC user hardware.

A reason why some games don't run as well on 360 that it should be able to is because the developers don't care as much due to the fact that it can handle less optimized graphics and code then you see in PC games. As long as they go above 30-40FPS it's acceptable, so why put expensive time into optimizing it when it's not needed? This is what we saw in the last generation of consoles very clear. Take the PS2 for example, They could have made games that looked like the games released for it last year from the beginning as the hardware was there, but they didn't as the market didn't push the developers to optimize the games to be able to use the hardware to the maximum. You'll see that same on the 360 as it ages, game will look better and better and still run at about the same level as the developers are forced to optimize and think more and more to get the most out of the same hardware. PC always require this as it's constantly having users with older hardware that must be able to use the software.

EDIT: I should add that some people think we're talking about a port here, which we where not. Making a port involves changing things to fix the issues with the difference in hardware available, like optimizing all graphics and changing what is needed to make it run on all PC inside the set spec range. We where discussing if the existing GRAW2 360 would run on a PC (with essential changes so it can communicate with the hardware of course), so it looks exactly like it does on the 360, which is far from the same thing as a port.

Edited by Wolfsong

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Still, I dislike the way the entire GR series has gone and may not even purchase it for the PC. I await a game from a small company that will blow everything else out of the water.

Bravo. Here here and all that brewhaha.

I as well am waiting in giddy anticipation for the same thing to happen.

I agree, I will be waiting on such a game also, let’s hope it transpires.

I will download the Demo of GRAW2 but I don’t think I will be as eager rushing to the shop for a copy this time, especially after the disappointment of late!!

Basically the GRAW game has stolen the incredible popularity that accompanied the [GR], its perfect dare I say simplistic down to earth game play the like of hasn’t even be approached by any other game vendor to date. Period.

I periodically only read the forums now & then simply because of the line GRAW has uncouthly taken.

Indeed I miss my times as an [GR] player & the late Friday night shootouts of old. I feel gaming wise I have been sent to prison eagerly awaiting parole for crimes I didn’t commit.

I am now proceeding to start my own business up making mass produced cars……….. the name……….. well ‘FORD’ seem like a good bet!!! Think I will get away with it?

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Still, I dislike the way the entire GR series has gone and may not even purchase it for the PC. I await a game from a small company that will blow everything else out of the water.

Bravo. Here here and all that brewhaha.

I as well am waiting in giddy anticipation for the same thing to happen.

I agree, I will be waiting on such a game also, let’s hope it transpires.

:yes: I'm really hoping another company can step up to the plate and create something along the lines of GR and it's great gameplay. GRAW pretty much ruined the GR series for me! :rant:

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This is the essential part of your entire post. The majority of the PC gamers did not by a new computer in 2006 or 2007, although I would have loved if they did as it would make things easier for developers. Like I said in the first post I did on this subject, only a few percent of the PC gamers have such new hardware and they would of course be able to play it. But that is also why the the AVERAGE home PC can't run a game made for the 360.

Nvidia has sold more than 3 million G8x silicons (Nvidia 8 series chips) to board manufacturers in the last 6 months. Sure it doesn´t say that 3 million end-users have DX10 hardware right now but it shows at what pace the industry is going. ;) The PC hardware industry is far larger and generating more profit than the console hardware industry which actually generates loss on most consoles (except maybe the Wii) but thats another whole topic.

Could you take the 360 version of GRAW2 and make it run on a P4 3,0GHz, with 1GB RAM and a GeForce 7600GS for example, which is pretty much a midrange gamer PC in use today? I think not. As said before, you can't compare console hardware with the latest PC hardware, then of course the PC will always win unless the console is brand new, you have to compare the console with the current most common PC user hardware.

I think yes, IF you would optimize it to death and make it run at 800x600 or something like that but it surely wouldn´t be easy and might take a very long time. Just so you know, there is a reason why min. requirements are are made and they usually target the performance of hardware at 20fps at 800x600 and the lowest settings. So yes it would be possible (IMO) but no it wouldn´t look the same but the more time was available, the better it could be optimized.

A reason why some games don't run as well on 360 that it should be able to is because the developers don't care as much due to the fact that it can handle less optimized graphics and code then you see in PC games. As long as they go above 30-40FPS it's acceptable, so why put expensive time into optimizing it when it's not needed? This is what we saw in the last generation of consoles very clear. Take the PS2 for example, They could have made games that looked like the games released for it last year from the beginning as the hardware was there, but they didn't as the market didn't push the developers to optimize the games to be able to use the hardware to the maximum. You'll see that same on the 360 as it ages, game will look better and better and still run at about the same level as the developers are forced to optimize and think more and more to get the most out of the same hardware. PC always require this as it's constantly having users with older hardware that must be able to use the software.

You are saying that 360 games are not optimized? lol No offense but that is very VERY far from reality. Console games in general are strongly optimized because they don´t have the raw power to overcome poor coding/missing optimizations, UNLESS you make a crappy looking game of course. ;) Console game development is all about dodging limitations (bandwidth, memory, raw power, fillrate, disc size, missing HDD etc.). Why do you think they cap most games at 30fps, because the console can´t produce higher average framerate OR it would start to stutter or lock up (run into another hardware bottleneck). And the 30fps is just one limit what about usually limited level size, heavy LODing, missing filtering etc. Hardware limits and/or limited development time. ;)

The reason the PS2 games started to look better as time passed by is because the PS2 was NOT easy to code for, both from the hardware side BUT ESPECIALLY from the devtools side. Many people in the industry hated to code for it and many had to learn to code for it but as time past by they got better and managed to squeeze everything out of the hardware. The 360 devtools are far easier to code for and already very effective. I don´t expect 360 games to advance visually like the PS2 games did. You can see the limit of the hardware already and it still in its first trimester. lol (joke ;) )

Anyway, I´m done with this topic. My opinion is pretty clear now I guess. ;) Enjoy your PC and console games, I know I enjoy mine (especially ones on my PC) ;)

Edited by agentkay

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Could you take the 360 version of GRAW2 and make it run on a P4 3,0GHz, with 1GB RAM and a GeForce 7600GS for example, which is pretty much a midrange gamer PC in use today? I think not. As said before, you can't compare console hardware with the latest PC hardware, then of course the PC will always win unless the console is brand new, you have to compare the console with the current most common PC user hardware.

I think yes, IF you would optimize it to death and make it run at 800x600 or something like that but it surely wouldn´t be easy and might take a very long time. Just so you know, there is a reason why min. requirements are are made and they usually target the performance of hardware at 20fps at 800x600 and the lowest settings. So yes it would be possible (IMO) but no it wouldn´t look the same but the more time was available, the better it could be optimized.

Once again, the discussion was about GRAW2 without any optimization and the exact same systems to solve things as used on the 360, and that of course includes the same resolution. It's really annoying when people quote me while they have in really changed the subject to benefit their own post.

You are saying that 360 games are not optimized? lol No offense but that is very VERY far from reality. Console games in general are strongly optimized because they don´t have the raw power to overcome poor coding/missing optimizations, UNLESS you make a crappy looking game of course. ;) Console game development is all about dodging limitations (bandwidth, memory, raw power, fillrate, disc size, missing HDD etc.). Why do you think they cap most games at 30fps, because the console can´t produce higher average framerate OR it would start to stutter or lock up (run into another hardware bottleneck). And the 30fps is just one limit what about usually limited level size, heavy LODing, missing filtering etc. Hardware limits and/or limited development time. ;)

I have to say that you have been really fooled by someone. LOL.

Sure everything is optimized, nothing produced isn't. But most 360 titles could be optimized far more.

Edited by Wolfsong

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valve system survey nov.2006, updated mar.2007

I don't want to speak for anyone, but I think the core argument is that of course an equal or better spec'd pc could run Graw2x360 as is, and that a better spec'd PC could produce a better visual game a la Crysis. But, the majority of people out there have some degree of lesser then x360 spec'd PC. That's all. Some devs push the envelope in a good way, some aren't as successful. Some people get the most visual punch out of their game experience, others get low res blurry textures with no lighting effects and 640x480, that's the nature of PC gaming unfortunately.

Edited by Brettzies

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Whatever ones' gaming preferences, the first graw threads strung out into infinity and beyond. Grin was active in the forums. Feedback was there. The Data was there, peering out from the screen, like a mad gamer gone ballistic. But someone higher up didn't get it. Just didn't clik with the higher echelon bracket \ One game that started it all. Lasted for years. Re-shaped an entire community worldwide. The formula worked. But for some reason, some upper e######lon drank the rest of it, whizzed it out, and flushed the toilet on quality Coop Mission play and our ability to artistically create modifications within it.

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i luv us AS guys.....u tell it how it is...miss u Cruusher.

but i have a tourney on the way...coop of course. you will finally get to play YOTM maps.

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