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The Good Old Days...

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How can there be tactical / stealth (common sense) in sending a recon team into a large city via HALO drop :rofl: !

Why would a HALO drop negate stealth? Granted, the TOD chosen for the drop was a bit too early, but I suspect that was deemed necessary so that your first intro to the game isn't pitch-black.

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Couple questions/comments.

1. to the people that rambo r6 vegas, do you play on the realistic setting? I have a pretty difficult time on that setting.

2. GRAW should not use a planning system like in the old r6 games. It doest offer realism IMO, sure you can plan your attack but GRAW and even r6 vegas are open, evolving engagements which while scipted, are susposed to represent a real time battlefield. And in graw you can send your guys to a point on the map and have them suppress or engage enemys

3. IMO GRAW is superior to [GR]. I dont think GRAW is as easy or mindless as some do, perhaps people play on the easy or medium difficulties rather then the harder ones. I also dont play MP that much so I can really comment. I do miss current issue milltary hardware in GRAW and id like to be able to use a M4 or a HK416 and another sniper rifle other then the .50 cal. IS GRAW as tatical as [GR], probly not but its not laking IMO, also I thought the AI was some of the best I have seen in a Ghost Recon game.

ALso I thought R6 raven shield was a pretty poor game and did nothing but repeat its self. R6 Vegas, while is not as "Tatical-wish they would bring back hit sensory and disableization" I think the game offers a better story line and better environments. I will agree that they need to improve the cover system, but even as it is I really like it and think it adds something that was missing from previous Tom Clancy games

Edited by 79TransAm

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Why would a HALO drop negate stealth? Granted, the TOD chosen for the drop was a bit too early, but I suspect that was deemed necessary so that your first intro to the game isn't pitch-black

While I understand it's a very impressive for a gamer to see a full city sprawling in front of them in immaculate detail, the tactical considerations for them doing what they did are pure Hollywood. What would be the advantage of dropping into a heavily populated, convoluted, dangerous landscape at a TOD when you're perfectly visible? Not to mention the fact there are clear political and diplomatic consequences to having American troops fully armed and running a seemingly clandestine operation in the capitol of Mexico. The whole plan lacks the subtlety and discretion required of delicate operations as was presented.

The whole scenario is a dog-and-pony show dreamt up to impress audiences unfamiliar with military tactics, IMO.

1. to the people that rambo r6 vegas, do you play on the realistic setting? I have a pretty difficult time on that setting.

2. GRAW should not use a planning system like in the old r6 games. It doest offer realism IMO, sure you can plan your attack but GRAW and even r6 vegas are open, evolving engagements which while scipted, are susposed to represent a real time battlefield. And in graw you can send your guys to a point on the map and have them suppress or engage enemys

LOL from now on, the R6 series will be known as 'Rambo 6'! I haven't played Vegas, but from what I've seen from the vids, it's more of an Action FPS with tactical clothing. For counter-terrorist situations like that, extensive planning is and coordination is made well ahead of any contact, using multiple teams with multiple timed insertions and actions. Not four "badasses" who "Sam Fisher" their way through a level.

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Like I said, the TOD was a gameplay concession. Afterall, how many people are going to rant about a bloody cutscene? :P

You did make it sound though as if HALO drops were not stealthy and that is what I took issue with. That and the fact that you extrapolated from a mere cutscene that the entire game does not have any stealth involved. While I might, to some degree, agree with the conclusion, I find your reasoning quite strange.

For the record, the reason I believe stealth does not play a big part in GRAW is that there is no tangible payoff to using it. You still have to kill the same guards at around the same locations just piecemeal. The reasons for that imo are numerous:

  • Enemy AI omniscience: They have an uncanny ability to spot you regardless of the cover you're peeking out of. e.g. you can be in a darkened room half-way across the map and if you peer out the window too long they spot you.
  • Friendly AI aggressiveness: The minute they spot a bandit they will engage him it seems, regardless of whether they were spotted or not.
  • Non-communicating enemy AI: While the former contrive to perclude stealth by making it extremely difficult, this one betrays the reason for it. Why sneak around when you'll still end up facing the exact same guards and carrying out the exact same tasks anyway? It's a lot more fun to blow things up! This could have been ameliorated by some interesting mission design; perhaps including "alert" response fireteams that only show up if you make a racket while pursuing your objective?
  • Non-inquisitive enemy AI: If I hear a rustle/noise somewhere I might be tempted to investigate. In contrast, the AI will respond to a bloody explosion simply by turning their heads in that direction. Had this not been the case, it would have been fun to use the game's physics engine to say puncture the tire of a car, break it's glass or trip its alarm to lure a guard away from his route for an isolation kill.

It would have been entertaining to allow us the option to truly be "ghosts" and accomplish our tasks without leaving a trace that we were even there. Alas, it was not to be. Maybe next time?

Edited by Pritzl

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Well I miss the GR mission start gentleman we have a delicate situation, Tjagasvilli's troops have taken hold of......

I guess the next level lies in combined intelligence, a proper briefing with situations in field going different than foreseen.....

Bringing in little spyplanes, drones and a mule can give the extra topping but that would become really interesting if there was a MP mode in which they can be of use..... a vast siege mode where both sides can make use of add on AI (tanks, planes, spy-gear and such) and with that I don't mean ARMA but AI guided extra's (like in GR you can point your team to cover certain area's, hold, suppres fire and such)

But I guess the daydream has walked away with me here

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  • Non-communicating enemy AI: While the former contrive to perclude stealth by making it extremely difficult, this one betrays the reason for it. Why sneak around when you'll still end up facing the exact same guards and carrying out the exact same tasks anyway? It's a lot more fun to blow things up! This could have been ameliorated by some interesting mission design; perhaps including "alert" response fireteams that only show up if you make a racket while pursuing your objective?

In my opinion, this is the biggest problem with GRAW, and is the one thing that still makes GR a much more enjoyable game to play. From a technical perspective, I believe this mostly results from the fundamental lack of "real" scripting/programing options in GRAW. It is just not possible to change a fireteam from executing a patrol to running someplace in response to some event. Worse yet, there is no real way for a GRAW script to adjust its later responses based on what (or how) you execute early parts of a mission. These are features that GR provided and that made it possible for modders to produce engaging missions with good replay value. I know I was stunned and saddened to lose this capability in GRAW.

  • Non-inquisitive enemy AI: If I hear a rustle/noise somewhere I might be tempted to investigate. In contrast, the AI will respond to a bloody explosion simply by turning their heads in that direction. Had this not been the case, it would have been fun to use the game's physics engine to say puncture the tire of a car, break it's glass or trip its alarm to lure a guard away from his route for an isolation kill.

It would have been entertaining to allow us the option to truly be "ghosts" and accomplish our tasks without leaving a trace that we were even there. Alas, it was not to be. Maybe next time?

This is exactly the type of feature that GR missed, and that I would have hoped to be available in a successor. Including some functionality of this type in concert with real scriptability would go a huge way toward making a proper successor to Ghost Recon. I'm happy to say "maybe next time", but I also know I will not be holding my breath.

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Why would a HALO drop negate stealth? Granted, the TOD chosen for the drop was a bit too early, but I suspect that was deemed necessary so that your first intro to the game isn't pitch-black

While I understand it's a very impressive for a gamer to see a full city sprawling in front of them in immaculate detail, the tactical considerations for them doing what they did are pure Hollywood. What would be the advantage of dropping into a heavily populated, convoluted, dangerous landscape at a TOD when you're perfectly visible? Not to mention the fact there are clear political and diplomatic consequences to having American troops fully armed and running a seemingly clandestine operation in the capitol of Mexico. The whole plan lacks the subtlety and discretion required of delicate operations as was presented.

The whole scenario is a dog-and-pony show dreamt up to impress audiences unfamiliar with military tactics, IMO.

1. to the people that rambo r6 vegas, do you play on the realistic setting? I have a pretty difficult time on that setting.

2. GRAW should not use a planning system like in the old r6 games. It doest offer realism IMO, sure you can plan your attack but GRAW and even r6 vegas are open, evolving engagements which while scipted, are susposed to represent a real time battlefield. And in graw you can send your guys to a point on the map and have them suppress or engage enemys

LOL from now on, the R6 series will be known as 'Rambo 6'! I haven't played Vegas, but from what I've seen from the vids, it's more of an Action FPS with tactical clothing. For counter-terrorist situations like that, extensive planning is and coordination is made well ahead of any contact, using multiple teams with multiple timed insertions and actions. Not four "badasses" who "Sam Fisher" their way through a level.

I ment to say rambo. I was asking a question to those in previous post that said they take a "rambo" style approach to the game

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Like I said, the TOD was a gameplay concession. Afterall, how many people are going to rant about a bloody cutscene? :P

You did make it sound though as if HALO drops were not stealthy and that is what I took issue with. That and the fact that you extrapolated from a mere cutscene that the entire game does not have any stealth involved. While I might, to some degree, agree with the conclusion, I find your reasoning quite strange.

For the record, the reason I believe stealth does not play a big part in GRAW is that there is no tangible payoff to using it. You still have to kill the same guards at around the same locations just piecemeal. The reasons for that imo are numerous:

  • Enemy AI omniscience: They have an uncanny ability to spot you regardless of the cover you're peeking out of. e.g. you can be in a darkened room half-way across the map and if you peer out the window too long they spot you.
  • Friendly AI aggressiveness: The minute they spot a bandit they will engage him it seems, regardless of whether they were spotted or not.
  • Non-communicating enemy AI: While the former contrive to perclude stealth by making it extremely difficult, this one betrays the reason for it. Why sneak around when you'll still end up facing the exact same guards and carrying out the exact same tasks anyway? It's a lot more fun to blow things up! This could have been ameliorated by some interesting mission design; perhaps including "alert" response fireteams that only show up if you make a racket while pursuing your objective?
  • Non-inquisitive enemy AI: If I hear a rustle/noise somewhere I might be tempted to investigate. In contrast, the AI will respond to a bloody explosion simply by turning their heads in that direction. Had this not been the case, it would have been fun to use the game's physics engine to say puncture the tire of a car, break it's glass or trip its alarm to lure a guard away from his route for an isolation kill.

It would have been entertaining to allow us the option to truly be "ghosts" and accomplish our tasks without leaving a trace that we were even there. Alas, it was not to be. Maybe next time?

So let's just call it what it is. SMALL INFANTRY (LEG) TEAM WARFIGHTER. As pointed out SO many times, there is ZERO chance of moving undetected in this game. You MUST engage and destroy a good 90% of your enemies (and hope the other 10% aren't essential elements in the script) to get through. I mean, who else here played through all 3 GR campaigns trying to see how FEW enemies they could kill and still succeed? <raises hand> NOW, as pointed out above, if there is one square millimeteer of my uniform showing through a crack in a wall or between the leaves of the bush I'm laying behind, then the enemy pistol-toting driver can spot me immediately with his acute Spider-sense and start blasting away.

(Can I get a smiley that says, "I'm with AlphaSquad?" When you make sense like they usually do, it's no wonder you're THE clan in your game...)

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(Can I get a smiley that says, "I'm with AlphaSquad?" When you make sense like they usually do, it's no wonder you're THE clan in your game...)

Well you can always use this alpha.png

Which you can get with

[img=http://alpha.websmart.ro/forums/Smileys/default/alpha.png]

P.S. Rabbi, I did not see 30+ signed up for the Community Coop GR Tourney yet. I hope you guys are just waiting for a last minute registration. It promises to offer a load of :ph34r: and :guns:

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:o Right you ARE! I'll go get on top of that right away! (I'm such a poor de facto match coordinator... lol)

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Personally, I think GRIN will produce a much more open battlefield in the next instalment. They've heard the complaints about it being too linear, and they're talented Devs so they will produce Missions that will require more thought, more planning, more options. That's where they will win.

I still think the issue of numbers of players in a Server; the lack of modability; the network and random crash issues; the stupid way the maps are rendered which screws up half the time - are the problems that will continue to plague the GRAW series.

Don't know about anyone else but I'm sick of looking at the washed out, sunny pictures. I'd like to see thick green lush foliage and rolling country sides. Can the Diesel Engine produce this type of map? - I'm not sure yet.

Edited by PoW_LigHtsPeEd

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All of the comments regarding the lackluster actions of the AI in GRAW are on-target... I think I wouldn't be as disappointed if it weren't for the fact that it was taunted that some sort of advanced AI was going to be used in GRAW. It still seems like GR's AI is more advanced... and since they don't automagically detect you like GRAW's AI, they allow for something that GRAW just can't ...

... stealth.

There is just zero stealth in GRAW. You approach an enemy, use cover as needed, and engage them. And that's the problem... without any stealth the creativity of play is greatly reduced. No matter how you approach the enemy in GRAW, it always ends up a firefight.

I guess not only does GRAW limit what the AI can do... but also what the players can do. And that limits replayability.

I hate sounding like I'm bashing GRAW because in many ways it delivers on what it's designed to be... a more emotional faster-paced FPS. And I've enjoyed it enough to keep playing it for it's own merits, but in terms of 'carrying the torch' for GR... it just doesn't.

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In case anyone's interested, the US ARMA MP Demo is available at Fileplanet. I've played it a few times, and it's a bit of a learning curve, but still a good tactical game. I also agree with KRP 56, it's a very different game than [GR] or the R6 series, but if you liked OFP, then you'll fall right into this one.

Armed Assault Multiplayer Demo - English

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[GR]

I also have noted that, in [GR], you could finish all objectives in ANY order. i didn't have to go to spot A and kill the soldiers at the truck site then, go to spotB to deactivate a charge then kill the badguy. I could reverse anyway i like and still achieve the objective. sometimes when you complete an objective early, it gave you a bonus of completeing another as it changed the situation completely. [GR] missions were due to conditional statements. if i decide to knock off the badguy first, then wouldn't have to worry about the soldiers at the truck nor the charge as the crucial part of the mission was eliminated. I guess the variances of what a leader could do made GR replayable.

GRAW

It WAS an attempt to make a game with an improved military look and feel. It is way linear as the mission is baked into the map. where as [GR] a map was a clean slate then the mission was overlayed with a new mission. GRAW was never meant to be moddable and that is the single biggest ding against a game. modding is what keeps people interested in a game plus keeps people wanting to buy expansion packs. GRAW doesn't leave that impression on me and by the posts i see here.

GRAW2

it had better deliver BIG TIME or it too will suffer and the people may just as well leave for good. the only ones i believe who can save anything are the guys who conceived and made the original..RSE. I would hope they still have everything left over from GR2 PC and can bring it up to speed with DX10/Vista.It would be just a shame to see a great game die a slow and horrible death.

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For whatever else I agree with Papa6 on above, this one nugget of pure platinum JUST NOW set in with me:

"GRAW was never meant to be moddable and that is the single biggest ding against a game"

You know, that never sat in with me until JUST NOW. Well, within the last three minutes. You know what I mean.

YES, there is a map editor with GRAW, though it wasn't included in the original retail release nor the first couple updates. We had to beg for it.

Outside of that and some modding tutorials from the developers (thanks, GRIN! =D) there's been nothing. The first couple months this game was out, the modders around here were in a real hard spot. And we still haven't seen a good, comprehensive mission/campaign mod that I'm aware of. The masters of such, AlphaSquad, appear more interested in [GR] now than GRAW.

If you want GRAW2 to sell, then on top of all the rest of this bunch's issues you must also address post-developer moddability (is that a real word or a GRnet word?). The ability of the community to create entire missions for COOP ensures tournaments, which in turn keep interest in the game high. Trust me, this bunch around here WILL bring the baddest missions that can be imagined. They just need the tools. And an intuitively designed game that allows them to do what they do best- make a good game great...

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don't get me wrong on this i love mods and i would be sad, depressed

if the modding would stop...

but ....

i have found that

1) modders here want it kinda easy, (i know good modding is not easy)

tools have to be supplied... and they are demotivated quickly (again i know it is hard work and long work)

(that can be my misconception of the situation, but i know the first day of GRAW modding, one half hour and me and a friend were inside the bundle..... it looked real easy then while the whole modding community here were still upset about .bundle)

2) games might go off in to directions with modding the developer or publisher do not like or want to be associated, therefore be hasitent to provide mod tools

3) any one here done the ubi questionair ?? there was or still is one that

askes about modded games (one or two questions) if you play and maybe but not sure if you prefer modded / moddable games

what if all of those above are kinda negative for us but real, then ubi will not order grin to make graw / graw2 moddable, because that increases the cost more than it would increase profit.

if we here are a tenth of the PC market, and two tenth are not in favour of modding, with the misconception that modding = hacking (we all know some feel that way misguided as it is) then we draw the short straw

good old days... we got some tools for modding....

[GR] had ?? igor, a good tool but it was scripting only

with graw we have lego only........... and some tutorials for scripting

and it was on the drawing board as one can read in the mappack release notes and anouncements......

maybe i should have been wise and not been in this thread,

sorry to step on any ones sentiments

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The xml nature of the game files suggests that modding was considered from the get go. It's not easy to separate data out like that because then you have to write a whole lot of parsing and error-checking code before you read it back into the game. I think time limitations are what prevented GRiN from delivering a fully functional editor at release.

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And once again, it's not like GRIN pulled a 6th Grade term paper routine on this one and waited until the night before it was due to start working on it. Had UbiShaft given them a reasonable timeframe within which to work, it may have been delivered with more modding tools in the original package. And perhaps the world will know some luck with GRAW2 to include the same. But tell me what your realism magic 8-ball says. Mine says, Not Likely.

True, the use of xml suggests taht easily moddable aspects were considered from the get-go. OR it could be coincidence3 that the developers used this reasonably simple format to control certain elements of gameplay as it just benefitted them to do so. Likely each of those compliments the other, and GRIN knew they could benefit twice from it.

But textures can't be written in xml. 3D objects can't be created in xml. And xml isn't the only element in mission scripts. To have a successful outing in creating a whole new mod campaign from scratch (as some have done flawlessly with [GR]) requires the capability to completely change or generate from scratch all of these things, and package them all into one file that can be distributed to all users.

I don't think GRAW is there yet. And I doubt anyone's working on it at all anymore...

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don't get me wrong on this i love mods and i would be sad, depressed

if the modding would stop...

but ....

i have found that

1) modders here want it kinda easy, (i know good modding is not easy)

tools have to be supplied... and they are demotivated quickly (again i know it is hard work and long work)

(that can be my misconception of the situation, but i know the first day of GRAW modding, one half hour and me and a friend were inside the bundle..... it looked real easy then while the whole modding community here were still upset about .bundle)

2) games might go off in to directions with modding the developer or publisher do not like or want to be associated, therefore be hasitent to provide mod tools

3) any one here done the ubi questionair ?? there was or still is one that

askes about modded games (one or two questions) if you play and maybe but not sure if you prefer modded / moddable games

what if all of those above are kinda negative for us but real, then ubi will not order grin to make graw / graw2 moddable, because that increases the cost more than it would increase profit.

if we here are a tenth of the PC market, and two tenth are not in favour of modding, with the misconception that modding = hacking (we all know some feel that way misguided as it is) then we draw the short straw

good old days... we got some tools for modding....

[GR] had ?? igor, a good tool but it was scripting only

with graw we have lego only........... and some tutorials for scripting

and it was on the drawing board as one can read in the mappack release notes and anouncements......

maybe i should have been wise and not been in this thread,

sorry to step on any ones sentiments

I persoanlly don't want anything just "given" to me. But the modding has to be within reason. most modding tools of days past had you make your map, then IGOR would allow you to make the mission etc and the editor constructed the mission file or even gametype file upon saving the file.

Graw: make map with zones then export. then make all xml's to tell the diesel game engine what materials your map uses. then, unpack your quick.bundle and edit several xml files to get your editor to recognize your map. but then is other folks want to use your map, then you must repack your bundle then give it to rocky or give the unpacked version to Rocky.bcz everyone who doesn't have YOUR bundle, will get altered gamefiles in server play. nice modding guys.

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don't get me wrong on this i love mods and i would be sad, depressed

if the modding would stop...

but ....

i have found that

1) modders here want it kinda easy, (i know good modding is not easy)

tools have to be supplied... and they are demotivated quickly (again i know it is hard work and long work)

(that can be my misconception of the situation, but i know the first day of GRAW modding, one half hour and me and a friend were inside the bundle..... it looked real easy then while the whole modding community here were still upset about .bundle)

2) games might go off in to directions with modding the developer or publisher do not like or want to be associated, therefore be hasitent to provide mod tools

3) any one here done the ubi questionair ?? there was or still is one that

askes about modded games (one or two questions) if you play and maybe but not sure if you prefer modded / moddable games

what if all of those above are kinda negative for us but real, then ubi will not order grin to make graw / graw2 moddable, because that increases the cost more than it would increase profit.

if we here are a tenth of the PC market, and two tenth are not in favour of modding, with the misconception that modding = hacking (we all know some feel that way misguided as it is) then we draw the short straw

good old days... we got some tools for modding....

[GR] had ?? igor, a good tool but it was scripting only

with graw we have lego only........... and some tutorials for scripting

and it was on the drawing board as one can read in the mappack release notes and anouncements......

maybe i should have been wise and not been in this thread,

sorry to step on any ones sentiments

I persoanlly don't want anything just "given" to me. But the modding has to be within reason. most modding tools of days past had you make your map, then IGOR would allow you to make the mission etc and the editor constructed the mission file or even gametype file upon saving the file.

Graw: make map with zones then export. then make all xml's to tell the diesel game engine what materials your map uses. then, unpack your quick.bundle and edit several xml files to get your editor to recognize your map. but then is other folks want to use your map, then you must repack your bundle then give it to rocky or give the unpacked version to Rocky.bcz everyone who doesn't have YOUR bundle, will get altered gamefiles in server play. nice modding guys.

Pretty nice Papa

Could it be possible to LOCK a Bundle file?

Tinker

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I just think the bundle bungle kinda overcomplicated the mod process, as I read it on here. True I haven't been a big show at the modder forums, and in fact have exceptionally LITTLE experience at any sort of modding. Limited only to using IGOR to create pitiful attempts at rescripted missions for [GR] maps. I was on to something, but just not talented (or is it patient?) enough to pull it off.

But all this bundle extracting stuff sounds like WAY too much work for modders. Indeed, didn't it take a modder just to write a usable bundle extractor for the community? I'd think something like IGOR would go over VERY well here, and I seem to recall long before GRAW's release that there was a lot of talk about a newer, more powerful and user-friendly mod/editor tool to ship with GRAW.

Hell, I still can't figure out how to use the current map editor, though admittedly I haven't tried TOO hard. That's for my downtime in Afghanistan...

Seriously, it couldn't have taken this long for good mod campaigns to start flowing when [GR] came out. At least not once IGOR was in the users' hands. It would appear that the support for GRAW has pretty well disappeared, and reasonably so with GRAW2 on the way. That's to say that we'll have gotten less than a year out of GRAW when its successor takes the throne.

This isn't Madden Football, folks. Titles that last more than a year are a must. Feeling sympathy for Ubishaft, I can only imagine how much money is spent on developing a game of this size and complexity, so ditching it altogether after only one year seems pretty stupid.

Hence, selling it sans mod tools is equally dumb...

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quite insane if you ask me. GRAW just came out less than a year ago. I'm sure sales and $$ figures pushed for GRAW2, geez as many that bought GRAW at release lent enough for them to start GRAW2.

But the person that I am, if I cared about my reputation, I'd do my damn best to produce a game that stays in line to the classic franchise style. I was just thinking, if GRIN could get Diesel to work great and they could include [GR] maps, what could've GRAW been?

But I'm still wondering what became of the GR2 PC files? do they still have them? I'd like to see GR2 PC's work up till the quit point be rehashed into service and see what becomes of it. I heard it was awe inspiring. almost completed.

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You guys remember when you played a mission in GR, you carefully considered every step, plotting and planning every movement over wide and varying terrain in order to have the upper hand on a challenging and often unforgiving enemy? What happened to that? That feeling of tension you felt, knowing that any wrong move could often prove fatal? That tension is long gone for me. As I bound from objective to objective, encountering the same scenario of a group of guys waiting to ambush me in one direction, just so that I can blow something up and then run off to my next task of 10 in a mission, I can't help but feel like a high-speed errand boy. It would seem these days players are content with scripted sequences and lots of incompetant enemies.

Remember when you used to praise GR for it's realism and attention to detail? I used to be quite impressed with the detailed textures and models, most of them modeled directly from real loadouts currently used in the field. Yeah, the game was set in the near future, but what was really catching was GR's similarity to present-day combat. Now, GR seems to be a medium for military speculation, as our Army's "concept programs" are being showcased as realistic. As I recall, the XM22, the M8 weapon system and Crye Multicam have all gotten the hatchet, and the Future Force Warrior suite as a fully functional and operational tool has been reshaped many times over since it's conception and has no definite future. Bottom line is that I didn't like GR1 because of it's soothe-saying qualities, but because it made me feel and think like I was in combat today. In fact, I believe the origin of having the events that take place in the future in most Red Storm games is to lend an heir of legitimacy to and cohesiveness with actual world events and circumstances. That's not the case, anymore. Now, apparently the best way to make a stealthy entry for a recon mission is to HALO jump INTO A CITY in the middle of the day! Nothing out of the ordinary about that, and what could be a safer LZ?

I guess I'm rambling, but stuff like this has been bothering me about the GR series since GRAW. I expect the transformation of military simulation to action/adventure for the console audience, but I don't know how so many old-school GR Boys can stomach the departure from reality the current UBI offering has taken the series. The game is a charicature of it's old self and I don't think it will ever move back in the other direction with any degree of significance. Guess it's time to let go of this series and move on, I guess. I have heard some good things about Armed Assault...

It is still happening every day on Alpha Squad's servers, cause we still play [GR]. I dont have to remember playing [GR] missions, I play them every night.

Why would you continue to play a game (GRAW), that you find so dissatisfying? Get over it, move on like the rest of us.

Yes, we've been playing some Arma demo as well, a bunch of us cant wait until the US retail release. HUGE map that doesnt tie you to one little itty bitty area and funnel you through a pre-set path. Much more fun to jump in a Humvee and drive around to the north to assualt the enemy if that is your choice.

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The Good Old Days..., remember?

Sure do...same as its ever been.

Nothing in the EULA of GR:AW (or any other recently released game) states that you must uninstall GR/DS/IT to procede.

As you were.

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