I need some help from the community...

[ToW-Angel]

What am I needing help with? 2 things...

1) I'm hoping that we can get one of the anti-cheat communities to host a community ban list.

2) This is an important one... I need to compile everyones ban list of who was or is actually cheating so I can compile the list once there is a place to host a community ban list. Please, this only needs to be CONFIRMED cheaters, not people you only suspect as cheating.

Your diligence and participation is greatly appreciated.

If you wish to send me your ban list so I may compile them, please PM me, as this will also be a record of who is contributing.

I'm hoping in the next few days to have something for the community.

Also, and addition to, I need you to annotate in the PM who the cheaters are so that once I start looking at the ban list, I know which ones to get.

Edited October 5, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[-|-aMMo-|-]

Are you trusting them to only send the confirmed cheaters or are you going to need to see proof of them cheating before you add them to this ban list.

Because if you arent actually seeing the proof before putting them on the banlist, and just trusting people to send in their ban lists, then thats pretty ######ty and anyone could get banned that way cheating or not.

[BPR_MiK]

1) I'm hoping that we can get one of the anti-cheat communities to host a community ban list.

I have talked of this at PGL for a long time mate ..Strict rules need to be applied but as long as we work under strictly fair parameters PGL will gladly contribute and take on bans from other leagues/ladders AS LONG AS THERE IS EVIDENCE OF CHEATING ..

2) This is an important one... I need to compile everyones ban list of who was or is actually cheating so I can compile the list once there is a place to host a community ban list. Please, this only needs to be CONFIRMED cheaters, not people you only suspect as cheating..

PGL have never banned anyone yet but i assure that we will post id`s if and when we get some..

Maybe some special forum or something needs to be set up for this list and discussions of what we are willing to accept as cheaters .?

Edited October 5, 2006 by BPR_MiK

[ToW-Angel]

Absolutely and an excellent point, Ammo...

Definitely need to see all of the proof.

We also need to figure out who is going to be hosting this as it needs to be in 1 location so that the community ban list is properly maintained and updated as necessary. Having it on too many different sites could lead to other issues.

I have contacted Milar from RA (Respected Admins), but no response yet.

It is time for one of the anti-cheat communities to step as this is happening now and something will happen in the next couple of days, this is a guarantee.

Edited October 5, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[Bonehead]

How about forming our own "guild" of sorts meaning we can all communicate privately and share info. Reliable and knowledgeable Admins could register and join. By making it private it would keep the hackers and kiddies guessing. And it also will attract quality players by having an actively adminned servers.

Just a thought to ponder.

[ruggbutt]

I already have forums set up for this. It's our old ACC forum site, I can add a GRAW section and you should be good to go. Additionally, it's quite well hidden and only those that are members would be able to access it. Let me know if you want to use them.

Angel, I can make you an Admin if you like.

[Bonehead]

Why dont we use GR.net?

We already have tons of info from betas, modding, etc etc.

No need to spread info out any more than it has to be IMOHO.

I am sure Rocky would be happy to help if we asked him.

[ZJJ]

GR.net can probably help. Contact Rocky or I to discuss.

[MVTalon]

As far as I am aware this has already been taken care of

[Pulaski]

Is there away of telling if someone is cheating? SS and fraps are about worthless.

Edited October 6, 2006 by Pulaski

[CkZWarlord]

I can and am willing to host the Community Banlist. Also, I can write software so I could write an application for you guys that'll automatically keep your banlist up to date.

I have lot's of free diskspace on my server and unlimited bandwidth so I am more than capable of hosting it for you and also provide an auto-update service.

*** I would like to point out that although I have my place in http://www.TAGaming.com this will be a FREE and PUBLIC release (as in the software I made) for anyone to use. However, even though I will never charge for it, I really would appreciate a link on your site or something pointing to TAGaming.com but this WILL NEVER BE mandatory either ***

Edited October 7, 2006 by CkZWarlord

[FI_FlimFlam]

Currently I would be against any kind of automatically updating ban list. The AC just isn't ready for anything of the sort. The only thing that is going to end up on any ban list isn't going to be cheating of any kind. It's only going to contain griefers of some sort or another. Those should be reserved for local bans only. So automatically updating a community griefing ban list is a mistake IMO. I may not want to ban for the same reasons as AFZ so why should I automatically get their list? Other than that there is no way to make a legitmate cheating ban list at present.

Now when we start to get logs and such from the AC, then the potential is there but it also depends on 2 things from the details of the log. 1) the reliability of the AC (which is still shaky - but I have some faith in GRIN) and 2) the information from the log. If either aren't enough to be extremely accurate, then it's going to be an issue. Addittionally, how are we going to verify the logs as being genuine if you are going to try to emulate what PsB does? What safeguards are being put into place to keep someone from doctoring logs.

Look if you want to put the infrasturcture up for hosting a dedicated site and ban list then great. But the implementation is miles away because the AC is miles away. Currently we have a centralized place to discuss the AC right here at GR.net. But there isn't much to discuss since not much is going on besides default file checks right now. We have no tools to use otherwise. No screen shots, no replays, no custom file checks, no client side setting checks, no memory scans, no logs. Until the AC is fleshed out more, there really isn't much to do but say what if?

I think if you want to get to the point of an automatically updated ban list, then first we need to work with GRIN (provided they are willing) to get the AC as bullet proof as possible and implement backend capability to support a tool like PsB's - since that is the one that is attempted to be copied. Something along the lines perhaps of stamping the log detections somehow to prevent tampering. All precautions need to be taken to maintain the legitimacy of the detections from the AC before they are uploaded to a central area for considering or parsing for a automatic ban list.

Those are discussions that need to be taking place now rather than who's going to host the AC site.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Currently I would be against any kind of automatically updating ban list. The AC just isn't ready for anything of the sort. The only thing that is going to end up on any ban list isn't going to be cheating of any kind. It's only going to contain griefers of some sort or another. Those should be reserved for local bans only. So automatically updating a community griefing ban list is a mistake IMO. I may not want to ban for the same reasons as AFZ so why should I automatically get their list? Other than that there is no way to make a legitmate cheating ban list at present.

Now when we start to get logs and such from the AC, then the potential is there but it also depends on 2 things from the details of the log. 1) the reliability of the AC (which is still shaky - but I have some faith in GRIN) and 2) the information from the log. If either aren't enough to be extremely accurate, then it's going to be an issue. Addittionally, how are we going to verify the logs as being genuine if you are going to try to emulate what PsB does? What safeguards are being put into place to keep someone from doctoring logs.

Look if you want to put the infrasturcture up for hosting a dedicated site and ban list then great. But the implementation is miles away because the AC is miles away. Currently we have a centralized place to discuss the AC right here at GR.net. But there isn't much to discuss since not much is going on besides default file checks right now. We have no tools to use otherwise. No screen shots, no replays, no custom file checks, no client side setting checks, no memory scans, no logs. Until the AC is fleshed out more, there really isn't much to do but say what if?

I think if you want to get to the point of an automatically updated ban list, then first we need to work with GRIN (provided they are willing) to get the AC as bullet proof as possible and implement backend capability to support a tool like PsB's - since that is the one that is attempted to be copied. Something along the lines perhaps of stamping the log detections somehow to prevent tampering. All precautions need to be taken to maintain the legitimacy of the detections from the AC before they are uploaded to a central area for considering or parsing for a automatic ban list.

Those are discussions that need to be taking place now rather than who's going to host the AC site.

ACC as in a group of people that will review the case before adding it to a ban list that you can automatically download at your leisure. That group would have screenshots and proof posted at there site. They must also allow the possibility of letting everyone see the pictures in question and allowing those in question a chance to respond.

They when they speak of ACC i think are refering to what was established in GR1... not a master ban list of those the anticheat autokicked.

If you decide you don't want someone banned ... you can then remove him from the local server....

Edited October 8, 2006 by ROCOAFZ

[CkZWarlord]

I'm not saying it has to be decided right now, all I am saying is that I can write and have written software that is capable to automatically update the communities servers with the community banlist and that I have a server available to host it as well. Let me show you a screenshot of it:

All you would have to set is the updating frequency (auto update Off, Hourly, Daily, Weekly), where to put the banlist (aka the auto-detected place or a manually specified place) and just let it run. If you select off it will never automatically update hence there is also a button on it for manual updating (you could do this through a tool like Radmin for examle).

(Auto-detect is disabled on this screenshot as I don't have GR:AW installed, thereby forcing the user when it doesn't find GR:AW installed to manually select a directory to put the banlist in).

All you have to do is keep this software running on the server in order for it to work.

Edited October 8, 2006 by CkZWarlord

[Bonehead]

Since GRAW is so tough on CPU cycles, how does it behave?

[CkZWarlord]

You could run this program on 386 and still not notice it's presence. Also the ads do not cycle at all, the ad you see there is the only one it displays which is built into the prog so it also doesn't use much bandwidth (aka only when it picks up the banlist).

Edited October 8, 2006 by CkZWarlord

[Bonehead]

Understand, but GRAW is a CPU intensive app, any other app that needs cpu cycles has a hard time grabbing a thread.

On a dual core server, do you need one instance per game or one per physical server?

[CkZWarlord]

Ive written an league-bound anti as well that uploads a screenshot every x seconds which takes way more CPU cycles than this does and it wasnt even noticed, so I highly doubt anyone will ever notice this during their visit to the server running it

Edited October 8, 2006 by CkZWarlord

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Ive written an league-bound anti as well that uploads a screenshot every x seconds which takes way more CPU cycles than this does and it wasnt even noticed, so I highly doubt anyone will ever notice this during their visit to the server running it

Can we also get an update time on it... so we can schedule it during lower traffic times or when we are not matchin... (say like 3am)

[CkZWarlord]

That is not really necessary as I've optimized to be low in cpu/memory and bandwidth usage.

[MILAR]

Nothing can be enforced unless thier is a way to track players other than with IP address. Only way is is a GUID or somesort can be assigned and linked to CD-keys. Second if a person is kicked from a server with altered game files, we dont get any info as to what the files are so that would leave any evidence inconclusive. The people who decide what is a cheat and what isnt and add players to a banlist, have to be un-biased, and have look at all angles, for banning innocent people is what they have to be clear as not to do. Thier are so many intagables that may look like a cheat but isnt. One's opinion may contridict anothers. When we added people to our banlist it was 100% a cheat, Not one was added if it couldnt be proved without a doubt. If they guy does produce a SS application that will help alot, but you have to aware that if its not encrypted so that the Photoshop kiddies cant frame people.

Edited October 9, 2006 by MILAR_BDA

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Nothing can be enforced unless thier is a way to track players other than with IP address. Only way is is a GUID or somesort can be assigned and linked to CD-keys. Second if a person is kicked from a server with altered game files, we dont get any info as to what the files are so that would leave any evidence inconclusive. The people who decide what is a cheat and what isnt and add players to a banlist, have to be un-biased, and have look at all angles, for banning innocent people is what they have to be clear as not to do. Thier are so many intagables that may look like a cheat but isnt. One's opinion may contridict anothers. When we added people to our banlist it was 100% a cheat, Not one was added if it couldnt be proved without a doubt. If they guy does produce a SS application that will help alot, but you have to aware that if its not encrypted so that the Photoshop kiddies cant frame people.

The ACC in GR1 was a bunch of clans and admins that reviewed the replays, then voted. If it wasn't 100% between all members then the person was not banned all servers. Any review board needs to be this way so there is no doubt on who cheated and who did not.

Screenshot time and date must match ban time and date and be in TGA format. There is a hash ID (which i think is linked to the cdkey somehow in your ban list)

Just adding to this post.

[CkZWarlord]

It's quite simple, I can produce an auto-screenshot taking utility that runs client side, but in a public enviroment, do you really think it is realistic to say that people will actually use it? Or do you think it is realistic that you can somehow enforce it? Or that someone would be kind enough to put up the hardware required for free because those SS's will need to be sent somewhere. I think this is as far as a public anti-cheat measure can go when there isn't an enviroment to enforce it in. Now if you are talking about gaming league-wise, like for example I am in the process of making for TAGaming.com then it is different, the hardware is already there, the rules of the league can enforce it's use, we can check wether or not someone is in fact using it. The true AC (as intended for the public servers) bit is up to GRIN, that is what they have opted for and is out of our control, now with this I think we have a realistic chance of creating a measure to keep the community fairly clean in a simple yet effective way.

All you gotta do is keep the program running and reboot the server once or twice a day to allow for the community banlist and the server banlist to be merged.

All we need from the community is a couple of people who hate cheaters enough to review whatever it is they review wether or not someone has been justifiably banned from a server, if so, add em to the community list, if not, take em off again.

It's not hard people, just keep the end-result with what we want to achieve in mind before you start tripping over minor details as screenshot. And for the record, a screenshot's file format (aka JPG, BMP or TGA or whatever) doesn't really matter, as long as it is clear enough to see what is going on in that moment of the game from that players view.

I should really stop saying "we" by the way as I don't play this game anymore but just hate cheaters enough to be willing to be a part of this project.

[FI_FlimFlam]

Some considerations if you can do it Warlord.

1)The SS program needs to log the SS's. Client ident info needs to be logged. I don't know if you can do this but perhaps you can tie it to the MPID file in the Settings directory (if it's an install ID) to associate the player to the server logs. Perhaps GRIN can help you with that.

2)The SS program has to log the SS's and stream the logs to a central server for them to accepted for the CBL. This is to cut down on the potential for an untrustworthy admin attempting to frame someone. Some may not think this will happen, but it's a definite possibility.

3)If possible the logs should be stamped in some way to be able to verify their validity - especially with a cross reference to the Server logs. I don't know if it would be to send a small information packet with md5 value of the log everytime the server is restarted or whatever. But consideration should be made towards this as a way to keep the log integrity for a community ban list.

[CkZWarlord]

As I said before, I will not make a SS Client for public use as in my personal opinion as stated above there is not a platform to enforce it from. That is the whole problem with public servers, yes clan rules can enforce them for clanmembers but for outside visitors it is not an option and therefore it is not very useful to go through the trouble of making such a program.