GRAW dead, im off

[Cangaroo.TNT]

I know, I feel the same way as you do sometimes. Actually the post were intended for another thread with a similar heading (as you can perceive from the content of my post), nwm. It is still a noble art to be off key.

LOL !

Yeah I am always of key so I can understand

Well, I'm glad you guys were able to clear the air and recognize you were on the same page before this turned into the usual soap opera fiacso we have seen over the past few days/weeks/months. But, to be honest, the drama makes for better reading. Are you sure you guys can't start slandering eachother anyways?

[Bonehead]

LOL!!

Want drama and slandering? UBI is the forum fer ya! Can't stand that place personally speaking.

::: now back to your regularly scheduled programming :::

[RuTHlezz1]

Did you just call me a UBI forum !?!?!?!?!?!

Those are fighting words.

Edited September 26, 2006 by RuTHlezz1

[Entr0p1cLqd]

An interesting thread. Glad it didn't descend into some mad flame war about the merits (or not) of console gaming etc.

The vast majority of casual gamers that I know don't actually buy that many games. In fact, I'd go as far as to say they probable get 1 or two a year. These are the sort of guys that buy the odd game for when they have mates round for beer and they want a laugh. The games they are playing are years old.

In fact, thinking about it, the only people I know that buy loads of games and burn through them at a rate of knots are the hardcore gamers.

I do think that the consoles are getting a big boost at the moment. That's partly because there's more money to be made there, but also because most development studios haven't got their workflow up to speed with the amount/detail of content required for the next gen games.

This also has a knock on effect - they _know_ that the next gen consoles will run their game beautifully. They know that actually, 30 FPS is fine for a console game (might not be the case now HD games are coming out, but there you go). But in terms of PC gaming, 60 FPS is assumed to be required (even if it's not), and goodness knows what sort of hardware environment it's going into. It's just a more hostile environment.

Currently, if they released a fully optimised X-Box360 game on the PC, running all the bells and whistles, only the top-end machines are going to be able to run it in all their glory. And in terms of market-share, top-end machines are a tiny percentage.

Still, give it a couple of years and we'll see PC gaming back on track. After all, M$ needs to find some way of getting us all to buy Vista

[JASGripen]

' date='Sep 26 2006, 03:27 PM' post='424276']

Well, I'm glad you guys were able to clear the air and recognize you were on the same page before this turned into the usual soap opera fiacso we have seen over the past few days/weeks/months. But, to be honest, the drama makes for better reading. Are you sure you guys can't start slandering eachother anyways?

I came here for an argument.

[NoQuarter]

Willie a little taken back by that comment, surely a game should not be a short term fix, I would like to see a game last at least a couple years, with added support and mode support.

Ofcourse it would be really great if people still played GRAW in five years and still liked it, and I wouldnt say that GRAW is to be considered a "short term fix production", however with the current state of the industry I wouldnt consider playing anything for 3-4 months to be a short fix, I would call that a pretty good run.

Well it looks like Ubi is in the process of clearing shelves for more "short term fix productions".

http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=68280&promo=sqsept06

[JASGripen]

Lowering the price seems alright at the moment. I don't have the numbers but one can assume that the cash flow on the product have reached its peak. Then it is time to widen the player base by lowering the price, the release an expansion and get good numbers on that product too. This is pure speculation, but it seems as a rather sane and conventional modus operandi. Expansion in december *wish*

[Fripounet]

Well it looks like Ubi is in the process of clearing shelves for more "short term fix productions".

http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=68280&promo=sqsept06

The game seems to have better effects on XBOX, and I'm surprised to see the green color. Am I right or is it my old 6600GT grapgic card's fault ?

[Forrester]

Well it looks like Ubi is in the process of clearing shelves for more "short term fix productions".

http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=68280&promo=sqsept06

The game seems to have better effects on XBOX, and I'm surprised to see the green color. Am I right or is it my old 6600GT grapgic card's fault ?

nope the xbox version differs in lots of ways, complete different desighn.

[RuTHlezz1]

I hate consoles but I am tempted to get an XBox so I can play its version of GRAW.

[OliverReed]

Expansion in december *wish*

If ever there is an expansion pack, which marketing ploy do you think we should we look out for to suck us all in?

HalfLife: Advanced Warfighter

SuperMario:Advanced Warfighter

[SCE_DarkNess]

Expansion in december *wish*

If ever there is an expansion pack, which marketing ploy do you think we should we look out for to suck us all in?

HalfLife: Advanced Warfighter

SuperMario:Advanced Warfighter

How about.."we fixed everything...we promise"

[JASGripen]

Expansion in december *wish*

If ever there is an expansion pack, which marketing ploy do you think we should we look out for to suck us all in?

HalfLife: Advanced Warfighter

SuperMario:Advanced Warfighter

I guess none or even both of those suggestions will "suck us all in", but then again you might not be into marketing.

Frankly for an expansion I see the usual stuff; a new campaign as a basic must in order to suck the SP players in once again. There will of course be new maps, from a rural campaign, which works in MP (even play tested for good MP, in good modes HH & siege that is). New weapons of course...

And finally a thing which I have seen for some games lately, the expansion is a standalone. You get the full game with patches and all if you buy the expansion. That will buy more players into the game. This is my dreaming (but Grin reads this so santa ain't dead yet), but I think that all of this together (esp. the last part) is important to give the game community a kick in the right direction.

[yttocs1966]

And finally a thing which I have seen for some games lately, the expansion is a standalone. You get the full game with patches and all if you buy the expansion. That will buy more players into the game. This is my dreaming (but Grin reads this so santa ain't dead yet), but I think that all of this together (esp. the last part) is important to give the game community a kick in the right direction.

That's a good point. Some games my friends play,they were on expansion packs when they asked me to play. I didn't want to buy the game then the expansion just to play. No it's not about money, lord knows how much money I wasted on games.

A MUST too is a working demo SP/COOP/MP.

[CkZWarlord]

Refering to GRIN_Willie's extensive post on page 1 of this thread:

There is only a relatively low number of games that have passed the test of time.

In fact, as far as I am concerned there is only 3 that have truly passed that test:

- Ghost Recon:DS/IT

- StarCraft: BroodWar

- Diablo 2: Throne of Destruction

These are all truly high quality games that is extremely hard to make a sequal for. They all have their own assets that cause this (at least for me as I own all three):

Ghost Recon for it's lovely mix between run and gun and tactical shooter, it's control simplicity and the pace of the game.

StarCraft: BroodWar for it's unparalelled gameplay and balance, it's graphics which never bore me and all it's game modes especially "Use map settings" which are so flexible and easy to use you can create mini-rpg's in them (and many have!)

Diablo 2: Throne of Destruction for it's never ending list of weapons and armors which makes building a character a great challenge and fun as you can specialize into so many different directions.

Then there is also a middle category that is a near-miss:

Take for example the Homeworld series (True 3D RTS games) where the only that is wrong with them is the fact that they lack pace which makes it not very interesting to play them as it limits the player in the number of strategies they can apply (just as an example). You could still get a good number of months out of it but it will just not last years like the other three previously mentioned.

As for other games (IE: The larger part), they generally don't last very long (say 3 to 6 months) before boredom with them strikes. It can't be helped, just the way things are.

I would like for all developers to take an extremely long and hard look at CS:BW, GR/DS/IT and D2:TOD and see what they can learn from them. It's important not only for a gamer that a game has longevity but also for a developer (note how I have added their expansions in the game titles). All 3 of these could have easily sold far more expansions than were made for them but that is a choice of the developer I suppose. Best game to look at for developers is StarCraft which will be celebrating it's 10th birthday next year (Yes, this game was released in 1997 and still there isn't an RTS out there that can live up to it).

Well, that's enough out of me. I hope someone at GRIN for example takes the advice and just looks at these games and see for themselves what makes them great, wouldn't be too much of an investment as they are OLD games (I think you would be able to get all three with their expansions and have spent no more than $50).

Edited October 4, 2006 by CkZWarlord

[Cutter]

Refering to GRIN_Willie's extensive post on page 1 of this thread:

There is only a relatively low number of games that have passed the test of time.

In fact, as far as I am concerned there is only 3 that have truly passed that test:

- Ghost Recon:DS/IT

- StarCraft: BroodWar

- Diablo 2: Throne of Destruction

Counter Strike.

[sui317]

pac man

[JASGripen]

Well as you are at it: Tetris Advanced Warfighting.

[Deweyf4]

Expansion in december *wish*

If ever there is an expansion pack, which marketing ploy do you think we should we look out for to suck us all in?

HalfLife: Advanced Warfighter

SuperMario:Advanced Warfighter

I like Super Mario, we could at least call it SMAW

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Refering to GRIN_Willie's extensive post on page 1 of this thread:

There is only a relatively low number of games that have passed the test of time.

In fact, as far as I am concerned there is only 3 that have truly passed that test:

- Ghost Recon:DS/IT

- StarCraft: BroodWar

- Diablo 2: Throne of Destruction

These are all truly high quality games that is extremely hard to make a sequal for. They all have their own assets that cause this (at least for me as I own all three):

Ghost Recon for it's lovely mix between run and gun and tactical shooter, it's control simplicity and the pace of the game.

StarCraft: BroodWar for it's unparalelled gameplay and balance, it's graphics which never bore me and all it's game modes especially "Use map settings" which are so flexible and easy to use you can create mini-rpg's in them (and many have!)

Diablo 2: Throne of Destruction for it's never ending list of weapons and armors which makes building a character a great challenge and fun as you can specialize into so many different directions.

Then there is also a middle category that is a near-miss:

Take for example the Homeworld series (True 3D RTS games) where the only that is wrong with them is the fact that they lack pace which makes it not very interesting to play them as it limits the player in the number of strategies they can apply (just as an example). You could still get a good number of months out of it but it will just not last years like the other three previously mentioned.

As for other games (IE: The larger part), they generally don't last very long (say 3 to 6 months) before boredom with them strikes. It can't be helped, just the way things are.

I would like for all developers to take an extremely long and hard look at CS:BW, GR/DS/IT and D2:TOD and see what they can learn from them. It's important not only for a gamer that a game has longevity but also for a developer (note how I have added their expansions in the game titles). All 3 of these could have easily sold far more expansions than were made for them but that is a choice of the developer I suppose. Best game to look at for developers is StarCraft which will be celebrating it's 10th birthday next year (Yes, this game was released in 1997 and still there isn't an RTS out there that can live up to it).

Well, that's enough out of me. I hope someone at GRIN for example takes the advice and just looks at these games and see for themselves what makes them great, wouldn't be too much of an investment as they are OLD games (I think you would be able to get all three with their expansions and have spent no more than $50).

UBI did.... They said hmm... game lasted 5 years (GR1) and half of because it was rampantly pirated. Why not make one that will last 6 months, and another and another to keep the gamers buying new titles and them making more money,

[buellsrusx1]

Refering to GRIN_Willie's extensive post on page 1 of this thread:

There is only a relatively low number of games that have passed the test of time.

In fact, as far as I am concerned there is only 3 that have truly passed that test:

- Ghost Recon:DS/IT

- StarCraft: BroodWar

- Diablo 2: Throne of Destruction

You forgot Half life

and Warcraft but thats ok we all make HUGE catastophic disasters sometimes.

Allot to be said about Blizzard Entertainment and Valve. Blizzard is known for releasing a game when its polished. Ofcourse there was the theft of half life 2 that may have caused some further polishing but ya got to hand it to them, Half Life 2 is a great game for what it is.

Also I dont see why diablo wont continue , Im sure Blizzard can get it right. Oh and ofcourse we all still have the promise that they will once again revisit the Starcraft Universe. Kinda funny eh?

[wildbill]

I am sure some one at Grin can help with that Error.

Willie a little taken back by that comment, surely a game should not be a short term fix, I would like to see a game last at least a couple years, with added support and mode support.

Or have we been spoiled in the past and short lived games is where we are at, I thought that was the console side of gameing.??

a bit of both really, but it really depends on the gamer, the general game dont play the same game for 5 years, he usually(for sp games) plays his 10-15 hours of designated out-of-the-box hours and are quite happy with that for the money he spent(you have to take into consideration what else you could buy for 30-40 bucks which is frankly not very much in terms of entertainment). The Gr crowd (and hardcore sim crowds in general) are a bit special when it comes to the gaming industry as they tend to choose something and stick with it, whereas the average gamer goes through a couple of games a month.

Ofcourse it would be really great if people still played GRAW in five years and still liked it, and I wouldnt say that GRAW is to be considered a "short term fix production", however with the current state of the industry I wouldnt consider playing anything for 3-4 months to be a short fix, I would call that a pretty good run.

Sure there are games out there that people play for years and years on end, but they are far apart and often in the end supported by only a rather small and extremley dedicated group(by small im meaning a couple of thousand, compared to the million or so that originally bought the game). These are however often designed as PURE multiplayer games, such as Battlefield(that has no SP game at all worth mentioning, or World of warcraft which is a MMO that actually pay every month for and can thus basicly be supported by developers almost indefinatly until people stop playing it). AND then there are the "hardcore" gamers, like flight sim guys, GR guys etc etc, that found their first love many years ago and dont want to let go, which is ofcourse very understandable, nothing like a first love!

Im confident that people will continue to play GRAW for a long time, since I really think it is a great game, with or without its flaws, however im not gonna be disapointed if somehas has played the game for several months and then put it on the shelf, I would say the game has done its job very well for that person and money well spent(40-50 bucks gives you 4 theatre tickets? one nicer restaurant meal for 2 people?at most(ofcourse translated into swedish currency so the pricing can ofcourse be a bit diffrent for you other people Im glad to have helped enterain someone for about 120 days on and off.

However im certainly not quitting and neither is grin, and ofcourse im delighted for everyday that goes by and people still play!

I just wanted to thank the guy for playing the game, I was glad he enjoyed it and I hope that in the future we´ll be able to bring more gaming fun to him!

this is just plain arrogant and shameful to put are expectations of GR in a catagory of games that would be played for 10-15 hours to be satisfied with that. Oh man this is why this version if you want to call it of GR is the way it is, which i have a good feeling you know what that is by the simply fact that you all are having to constantly defend or try to justify or explain your title for the way it is or isn't performing, for the shear fact that you and your attitude torwards this game are totally erelevent to this communities wants and desires for a GR PC sequel. For me it's to the point that i have lost enterest in GR as a sequel, and im almost certain that the people that you will disscuss this with as of late will IMO not even be the peeps that where wanting an upgrade to begain with. How dissapointing! Rub it in why don't you. You are obviously not a original GR PC FAN im sure.

[jay316]

dont forget operation flashpoint from that list.....

[Papa6]

Expansion in december *wish*

If ever there is an expansion pack, which marketing ploy do you think we should we look out for to suck us all in?

HalfLife: Advanced Warfighter

SuperMario:Advanced Warfighter

How about.."we fixed everything...we promise"

How bout a game where someone doesn't have to edit hundreds of material.xml files to mod a game? a comprehensive mod kit would be on par. but highly doubtful

sorry...couldn't help myself

[etf-danno]

Well I can say that I'm definitely torn on GRAW (being an [GR] lover)... it fits the reqs for a tactical FPS, but some of the design/play characteristics can be downright frustrating... and that's where the rub is...

Our particular clan has scoured the game market in search of a viable alternative to [GR] (which we played since it came out) and in the meantime settling with BF2 (I know, forgive us please). We couldn't find anything that matched [GR] (FSW, BF2, AA, CS, COD2, etc.) ... GRAW came the closest.

But this is the really frustrating part... I personally believe that it would have been as easy (or easier) to develop GRAW as a clone to [GR] with merely an updated graphics engine... and everyone here would've been really happy. Instead, many of us felt ignored to a degree... and you guys (GRIN) worked longer and harder at something we weren't ever really asking for, and thus profited way less. I don't want to be a GRIN-basher... but c'mon, do you really think you listened to the community during initial development of the game? I know you heard... but did you listen? Here's a question I'll never get a good answer to--- How many GRIN devs played [GR] (even just to see what it was like) before diving into dev'ing GRAW?

Now the patches all seem to be split between fixing bugs and making it more like [GR], meaning GRIN finally heard the word. Unfortunately, (from my view) most of the community dropped the game before the 1.30 patch even arrived... what a shame.

My thoughts on Willie's comments about the lifetime of today's games... basically it's a sad state of affairs when a game can't keep a loyal crowd over one year... and personally, I think GRIN won't be working with gaming communities like the GR community in the future... why beat yourself over the head when you can release the short-lived console-type of games Willie described... non-GR games that will make GRIN more money. Sad, isn't it?