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Tracking Players

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Posted

I believe tihs is something else that we need. As it is now, there is no way to check. A player can create a new GS logon, and he can go about his merry way.

There is something that can be done, track a player using a PCID, UID or some other method.

If a person gets caught cheating, with one name, there needs to be a way to keep him entirely out of the server if he changes his name.

Also, there should be a way to search a player DB to pull up all names via a PCID or UID, or some other method.

There should be a complete profile for each player that plays GR:AW. As it is now, there is no way to even check at all.

With GS as the server browser, there isn't even a way to truly to check players through them. This seriously needs to change if we are to truly combat cheaters.

It will take both UBI, GRiN, GameSpy and US to change these other people's way of thinking when it comes to tracking players. I believe that once the A/C is emplace, it will help some when it comes to keeping them out of our server, but without a PCID, UID or some other form of tracking, the A/C will be little help if that player changes their name or has different logons.

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Posted

Something like PunkBuster?

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Posted

Best plan is to ban the CD key, we know that it gets passed to servers due to the "Invalid Cd-key" bug you sometimes get connecting to a server.

They can still actually play with the same account, but they'll need to buy a new copy and install it first; a kinda cheating tax.

Keys can be banned at a single server, or globally.

BA

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Posted (edited)

I am against global banning as a bad server admin could really mess it up for a legit player.

Banning should be local to that server only, and the server admin should provide an ip list (through a forum or such like we do with ip, reason banned, and proof that they can even reply to)

From there other admins can decide rather they want to add them to this list.

I know you think cdkey banning is great... but do you really want server admins to see your keys? they could install GRAW to a pc, and login and keep you offline with cdkey rejected any time they wanted.

Best way is local banning through a hardware identifier of some sort, ip (with reverse name lookup and range banning) and mac address (which can be soft mac'd in some routers... grr)

so mac would have to be able to see the internal local nic or wireless card. Every time they were banned it would cost them a $20 to get unbanned. (for a new card)

Edited by ROCOAFZ

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Posted

your key is not transmitted (at least it wasn't in rvs) a hash generated from your key was banned. you could i assume break the encryption and get someones key i guess.

either way global banning is not allowed with pb unless you hack pb. the bans are server only but can be shared. that's how it should be done.

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Posted

I believe that there should be a global ban, but only done through the A/C. If the A/C catches someone cheating, then it gets added to a master ban list.

Local bans are fine for local server, but if the A/C catches someone, they should be added to the global ban list and banned from all servers running the A/C.

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Posted (edited)

[3.2] Threats/Personal attacks : Any posts containing threats or personal or racist attacks will be edited or deleted and the originating account risks banning.

Edited by NYR_32

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Posted

buellsrusx1, you have just earned yourself 2 weeks of post moderation for that last post.

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Posted

I was wondering how long it would take...

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Posted

Wow. Just wow...

@ToW_Angel- I'd never play a game that I was aware had a global ban feature. As ROCO pointed out, I believe, the opportunity is definitely there for some 12-y/o German kid (as in the video, not ALL German kids by any means) to mess it up for perfectly legit players for getting butt-hurt over being PWNed. Imagine this- our old pal, m9whore goes and sets up a server with a good map rotation, etc. Our buddy ROCO one night finds himself following some pals in there for a few rounds, unaware that it is that particular person's server. m9whore, being the great guy he is initiates a global ban on ROCO's CD Key. ROCO can't even play his OWN PERSONAL SERVER.

Not to single out folks we know or know of, but as an example in the hypothetical. Purely vindictive, non-legitimate game-related bans could start happening. Then the only people playing the game would be a few 1337 morons. And not even THEY want that...

Local bans are fine. Whoever pays for THAT PARTICULAR SERVER is entitled to allow or disallow whoever they see fit. Not only is this acceptable, but I doubt that anything else at all is acceptable next to it. There just is no justification for globally banning someone who paid their hard-earned money like the rest of us. If you really wanna do something about it, talk to Ubisoft's attorneys about cheats/hacks potentially violating their software copyrights. Maybe they'll expend the resources to track down the 1337 crowd and sue the pants off a bunch of 32-y/o boys who live in their parents' basements...

But I doubt it...

Still luvya...

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Posted

Global Bans are solely initiated by the internal working of the Anti-Cheat system that GRiN develops, with no outside input from Server Admins.

The A/C system is what will control the global banning system, not users, not wannabe server admins, not some guy who is ticked off at you for pwning them or whatever.

If the A/C system finds something that should not be there, the A/C system handles the player who is connected to the server.

Local Bans are those that are controlled by the Server Admins themselves, which they can ban/un-ban, kick, move players around and so on...

There is a strong and distinct separation of Global Bans, which is handled solely by the A/C system, and Local Bans, which is solely controlled by Server Admins.

PunkBuster works like this as well... You can PB Ban someone if you really wanted to and knew how. I personally know how to ban someone using PB as a 'local' ban only, which I have "no" control over PB's global banning.

People need to see the division of the two systems... A/C System and Server Admin System. The only control over the A/C System we should have is the ability to turn on/off, that's it, nothing else, nada, period, zip-ola! Ya get the drift now?

Local Bans are solely for 1 specific server in which a player is banned for constantly TK'ing members, telling people to 'f-off' and so on...

The A/C system is there checking to make sure players are not cheating... Now, you personally can ban someone from YOUR computer server LOCALLY only, submit screen shots or whatever else you have at your disposal and turn all that into the appropriate agency who handles the global banning system for the entire game servers who run A/C on their servers.

Is this making anymore sense now?

Two separate and individual systems...

A/C w/Global Bans and checking systems to ensure that people cannot cheat.

AND

Server Admin Controlled Local Ban.

That's the difference...

I have to admit that I cannot believe that people cannot remotely see the difference? You have no control over if the A/C Bans someone globally. Local Bans are what you truly have control over...

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Posted

Maybe this still hasn't sunk-in.

GLOBAL BANS ARE BAD!

They're bad for the community- honest mistakes by modders or those using certian mods, under the model outlined above would ban honest players for good. A/C doesn't have a forum where the integrity of a potential cheat/hack can be discussed, the player given his/her opportunity to plead the case, and a decision made.

They're bad for business- Even the hacks buy this game. BUY. As in PAY MONEY. It keeps those nice boys from Iceland in the paychecks, as well as the Ubisoft folks (who employ a FEW of my fellow Americans). It perpetuates the company, which is a business' first priority. It ensures the survival. Anything that discourages a buyer hurts the business. You'll notice that with all the cool features mentioned on GRAW's box (and BF2's and so on) that AntiCheat was NOT among them. Can't say I've EVER seen it advertised as a selling point to the consumer.

It's bad for RAbbi- Cuz I have a headache and it's only 8:50am...

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Posted

Global Bans are solely initiated by the internal working of the Anti-Cheat system that GRiN develops, with no outside input from Server Admins.

You absolutely do not want to remove the human element from the equation. Otherwise, legit players would end up getting globally banned for bugs.

My personal opinion on this is that there should be a global list available from which admins can pull if they so choose, either all of the list at once, or individual entries.

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Posted

UBI/GRIN just need to add Punkbuster. A community anti-cheat will never work.

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Posted

Let me use another example.

Say i'm a really good player and there is a tourn coming up that i should win just because of my skills. Lets say a few server admins think it will be unfair because i will sweep the tourn.

They could go into there servers and add me to the global ban, and no tourn for me. :( or playing at all.

Server bans should be local period. I may ban someone for bad lang on my server that others may not. That also doesn't mean i want to ruin someone's gaming because there 12 year old fired it up one night and wrecked havok on servers.

These servers can share ip's and such if they wish with other servers but at there own leisure or through website posts like we do. We also post the proof and if another server wants to add them, so be it.

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Posted

Roco... I guess I still haven't explained the difference well enough...

A/C System are Global Bans based on PCID of the connecting player, and NO human input.

Server Admin's are local bans are also based on PCID of the connection player and have human input.

Two separate systems, definitely not the same thing although both have a similar feature.

@Rabbi - I understand what you are saying, it's a good valid point about the modders and wannabe modders making mistakes, which is only human.

I believe that all mods should be tested thoroughly prior to release. How does this relate to the A/C system? The A/C system should not check to see if files match... It should check system variables, hooks, injectors and other game system environments.

Example: checking for altered game variables like player speed. If the player speed is suppose to be 25, and it's at 50, the player gets kicked/banned by the A/C system.

Game System Variables, injectors and game hooks are truly what needs to be checked for by the A/C system, not files matching the server.

I'm talking about the internal workings of the game itself, not the files. So, please understand the difference.

I believe GRiN is working on ways to check game internal system variables... I also believe that if the files do not match the server should be taken completely out of the equation as a simple text file in the wrong place can set off the A/C system and end up in a kick.

Now... Local Bans are only controlled locally by that server's admins. Which you can ban, unban, kick and move players around through a remote admin tool.

Do you understand the differences now?

Talk about a headache when people cannot understand the difference between an A/C Ban and a Local Ban?

PunkBuster is a global ban for all servers running anti-cheat.

It takes screen shots, fraps (or some other video program), and is voted on by the community who are involved in keeping cheaters out of their servers. That's why you have PunksBusted.com. You have one other way to go with PunkBuster also... You can turn in suspected cheat sites, players and turn in any cheat software or altered file to PunkBuster (EvenBalance) which they will change the way and how PunkBuster checks for cheaters.

So, when it comes to the Anti-Cheat System, there is human input only through the means of voting on if someone is cheating and then once voted upon they get added to a master global ban list.

Local Ban lists are solely the responsibility of the renting or owning squad and has absolutely nothing to do with being added to a global ban system. The only exception to this is to turn in Screen Shots , Video, Cheats or other things to an appropriate agency who will make the determination of adding someone to the master global ban list.

This is all done through PCID of the connecting player, has nothing to do with IP addressing. If someone wishes, like a couple of squads have, to ban someone by IP, that is up to them, but still has nothing to do with the A/C system. Banning by IP is another form of a Local Ban.

Global Banning is just that... Any server running the A/C system will be able to check the master ban list and keep cheaters out.

Global bans are good, because then you don't have ask if such-n-such player is on someone else cheater list. What if you accidently added the wrong person and now that local ban list of yours gets shared by several groups? Its the same situation reversed.

Hopefully, you all understand the difference and what each actually means. If not, I will quit this community and walk away entirely... Because, if after this, you still do not understand the difference, it is likely you never will.

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Posted (edited)

I didn't read all of the above post as i am heading to lunch but let me put it a different way.

If we get the options to autodownload maps, and someone makes a way to drop it in your local folder rather then the correct one (custom) The anticheat will kick in and not let them join a server. Would we really want that person to get AUTO banned for every server out there even if they fix the issue? (using my RVS and punkbuster issue) I see some hacker putting up a server and banning every good player with this theory.

What if i advertise a mod but instead accidently make it go to the local folder instead of custom. People download it and they are autobanned forever? Hmm i have a few bad apples on my ip address i should send a custom "hack mod too" (blank txt file in the local folder will set off the AC currently. )

And to add to this point... if GRINS AC checks and autokicks... Why do you need a GLOBAL ban? it won't allow you to join if you install a hack, so the hacker has to come clean to play. No Global ban required. Local ban is though for those that start racial wars and such in the chat and figure out ways to get outside the map.

Note also the AC does not check your profile or render xmls. so a misstype won't cause an issue with the AC although it may with the game itself.

Edited by ROCOAFZ

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Posted

Roco, please when you have the time read the full post... It has a lot more there than you think...

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Posted

Roco, please when you have the time read the full post... It has a lot more there than you think...

Let me add to this.. for the injectors... what if you are running a teamspeak overlay to see who is on your comms while in game? It uses an injector. Will this pose a Global ban?

I can't believe every screenshot on punkbuster for the global ban is voted upon. also that would take to much time and allow a cheater to run amok for way to long.

The way GRAW is designed, the AC has to check files. not everything is handled by the server meaning some of which is client side. With out the AC if you were to mod a map and take out the walls you wouldn't see them when you play. The AC has to check files.

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Posted

Forget it... I quit.

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Posted

Let me add to this.. for the injectors... what if you are running a teamspeak overlay to see who is on your comms while in game? It uses an injector. Will this pose a Global ban?

I can't believe every screenshot on punkbuster for the global ban is voted upon. also that would take to much time and allow a cheater to run amok for way to long.

The way GRAW is designed, the AC has to check files. not everything is handled by the server meaning some of which is client side. With out the AC if you were to mod a map and take out the walls you wouldn't see them when you play. The AC has to check files.

Punkbusted.com does not ban global, only evenbalance(the makers of punkbuster) can ban global. Punkbuster.com is no more then a local ban, which are shared to server admins if they wish to use them.

Your question about Teamspeak overlay is easy, since GR:AW doesn't have a Anti-Cheat you have nothing to worry about.

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Posted

golbal bans on jsut an anti-cheat by it self no thank you. i want someway to track the people who ahve been caught cheating for everyone to see and add to there local bans if they so chose but not an auto ban. there are too amny way sinocent people would get caught up in that and ruin the game for them which equals bad for the game

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Posted

I understood the differences between local and global bans before. Hence the different words, 'local' and 'global.' Quite different. I got A's in computer science AND geography, so I think this base is covered.

As pointed out elsewhere above, the worst thing yet to do is to take humans out of the equation. As if we GRAW players don't know that even the coolest, most gee-whizzbang software can occasionally SCREW UP!

I see what ToW_Angel was getting at with the global IP ban initiated by AC software based on a client computer's checked files mismatching an approved configuration. I think it's the best idea I've heard yet for global, but global is still EVIL.

Glad Angle brought the idea up. REALLY I am. We need to be able to discuss these ideas, ALL OF THEM, and get a general consensus on what WE THE COMMUNITY want before we can expect anyone to produce it for us. Otherwise we'll find ourselves whining that Ghost Recond Advanced Anticheat isn't Old Punkbuster Recon, which is all we really wanted, but with all the cool stuff that makes the new game new.

NO GLOBAL, THANKS!

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Posted (edited)

Forget it... I quit.

ToW-Angel

This isn't ment as an argument but to show all angles and viewpoints. Injectors believe it or not have some good uses. I can tell who is talking on our ts when in game and who joins what channel with voiceoverlay (check it out sometime... teamspeak overlay has issues in GRAW). These things have to be considered.

GR1 didn't have a global ban and cheaters were dealt with accordingly. A group put together an AC site where you could post and have your IP's reviewed by more then one which was great. But sometimes it took weeks. Each server handled there own ban. If they had a problem with a guy and found his name there they could ban him if they wished. If you had a bad admin that banned you unjustly it was only local to that Server.

GRAW needs a file checker also. That is how the autosniper that was seen before the AC was stable came into effect. Someone change a gun file and blammo there client let them have an auto sniper on the servers. This wasn't an injector or a directx hack or even 3rd party.

I have ran our server for around 5 years now and have seen just about every hack out there for GR1. (Except super tiptoe... never had someone do that on our server)

I have also seen what automated one's like punkbuster would do... and you all remember kidbuster that flopped and LT's AC thing that has been known in the past to have issues

I fully understand the global concept, but i also know what it's like when it has issues and the performance hit they can induce into games.

Let me add to this.. for the injectors... what if you are running a teamspeak overlay to see who is on your comms while in game? It uses an injector. Will this pose a Global ban?

I can't believe every screenshot on punkbuster for the global ban is voted upon. also that would take to much time and allow a cheater to run amok for way to long.

The way GRAW is designed, the AC has to check files. not everything is handled by the server meaning some of which is client side. With out the AC if you were to mod a map and take out the walls you wouldn't see them when you play. The AC has to check files.

Punkbusted.com does not ban global, only evenbalance(the makers of punkbuster) can ban global. Punkbuster.com is no more then a local ban, which are shared to server admins if they wish to use them.

Your question about Teamspeak overlay is easy, since GR:AW doesn't have a Anti-Cheat you have nothing to worry about.

I know i am saying if punkbuster were to come to Graw or something similar.

It does have an anticheat, just in a filechecking form.

I see what ToW_Angel was getting at with the global IP ban initiated by AC software based on a client computer's checked files mismatching an approved configuration. I think it's the best idea I've heard yet for global, but global is still EVIL.

Note she says she's not talking about file checking... instead for direct 3d hacks and injectors which are almost impossible to nail as you could just rename them + it would have to check the whole hard drive as opposed to just the game directory.

or resident memory, which would be a whole nother resource hog in itself.

Edited by ROCOAFZ

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Posted

Forget it... I quit.

ToW-Angel

This isn't ment as an argument but to show all angles and viewpoints. Injectors believe it or not have some good uses. I can tell who is talking on our ts when in game and who joins what channel with voiceoverlay (check it out sometime... teamspeak overlay has issues in GRAW). These things have to be considered.

GR1 didn't have a global ban and cheaters were dealt with accordingly. A group put together an AC site where you could post and have your IP's reviewed by more then one which was great. But sometimes it took weeks. Each server handled there own ban. If they had a problem with a guy and found his name there they could ban him if they wished. If you had a bad admin that banned you unjustly it was only local to that Server.

GRAW needs a file checker also. That is how the autosniper that was seen before the AC was stable came into effect. Someone change a gun file and blammo there client let them have an auto sniper on the servers. This wasn't an injector or a directx hack or even 3rd party.

I have ran our server for around 5 years now and have seen just about every hack out there for GR1. (Except super tiptoe... never had someone do that on our server)

I have also seen what automated one's like punkbuster would do... and you all remember kidbuster that flopped and LT's AC thing that has been known in the past to have issues

I fully understand the global concept, but i also know what it's like when it has issues and the performance hit they can induce into games.

Let me add to this.. for the injectors... what if you are running a teamspeak overlay to see who is on your comms while in game? It uses an injector. Will this pose a Global ban?

I can't believe every screenshot on punkbuster for the global ban is voted upon. also that would take to much time and allow a cheater to run amok for way to long.

The way GRAW is designed, the AC has to check files. not everything is handled by the server meaning some of which is client side. With out the AC if you were to mod a map and take out the walls you wouldn't see them when you play. The AC has to check files.

Punkbusted.com does not ban global, only evenbalance(the makers of punkbuster) can ban global. Punkbuster.com is no more then a local ban, which are shared to server admins if they wish to use them.

Your question about Teamspeak overlay is easy, since GR:AW doesn't have a Anti-Cheat you have nothing to worry about.

I know i am saying if punkbuster were to come to Graw or something similar.

It does have an anticheat, just in a filechecking form.

I see what ToW_Angel was getting at with the global IP ban initiated by AC software based on a client computer's checked files mismatching an approved configuration. I think it's the best idea I've heard yet for global, but global is still EVIL.

Note she says she's not talking about file checking... instead for direct 3d hacks and injectors which are almost impossible to nail as you could just rename them + it would have to check the whole hard drive as opposed to just the game directory.

or resident memory, which would be a whole nother resource hog in itself.

Here's what I foresee as the biggest problem with an anti-cheat built-in to the game itself... GRiN will have to continue to develop the checks system until the budget runs out on the game and then we will not recieve anymore updates to the A/C system for checks to be accomplished.

We do need something that will globally keep cheaters out of all servers running the A/C, even if it's a consortium of squads sticking together, sticking to their guns and fighting with every resource possible. A global banning system is just a repository for known cheaters database which the A/C system can check PCID's against the repository of players to see if a flag is raised. If there's a flag on a player PCID, that PCID is denied connection to the server. That is not system intensive and it only takes a brief moment to check a repository, and/or the A/C system downloads the database to the computer locally and is checked there. It doesn't matter where the slave database is maintained as long as there is a global ban list that the A/C system can get updates from.

Maybe I was off in saying that the A/C system should automatically banning players, but they should at least get kicked from the server, then a flag annotated against the player so that people could verify if it is a hack, D3d injector (not TS Overlay, which I also have and works for me on GR:AW), system variables and environmental checks, along with resident memory checks. Resident memory checks only take a split second and not system intensive.

But, there definitely has to be a global database of cheaters that will work with the A/C system so that they cannot get into any server running the A/C. Agreed? That way we can know who the cheaters are and we can keep them out of as many servers as possible. The A/C system is only as good as the server admin... We can agree on that too...

PunksBusted has a database of cheaters in which server admins can download and add to their server so that even if the A/C system doesn't catch them, it will still deny the cheater access to the server based on PCID in the form of a MD5 Hash of the PCID.

This will ensure that they cannot circumvent the A/C if the A/C misses a new cheat on the block.

Maybe not global banning, but definitely must have a global repository for all servers to get an updated DB of verified cheaters.

Can you all at least see that much of what I am talking about?

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