Taking a Hit - Lack of Immediate & Noticable Effect/Punishment

[Peace]

Background/issue

It has become evident that it often takes many hits to make a kill in GRAW mp (with most guns). Also, the only way you notice that you have been hit is to look at your "health" at bottom left, i.e., there is very limited immediate and noticeable effect of taking a hit ...unless that first hit actually kills you . I and other AFZ squad members think this is kind of boring/unrealistic and not good for game play.

NB! I'm NOT talking about more long lasting effects of taking a hit (that has been previously discussed) I'm talking of a possible additional brief (1-2 sec) "shock" of having a bullet buried into you or your body armour - an effect which in current version of the game simply doesn't exist.

Suggestion

- if hit your aim is always thrown off (similar to GR1)

- if hit while stationary, you can not change stance or move for ~1 sec

- if hit while moving you temporarily slow down (lasting ~1 sec) or fall (random, or depending on where you have been hit) (i.e., extension of the GR1 model). That will also make the guy pulling the trigger more aware of that he actually did hit, and give him a chance of actually making a kill...As it is now, it is too often you actually hit somebody on the run, but then he/she gets out of view (as the maps provide an extensive number of shelters, always in close vicinity).

Community input

What is the opinion of other mp GR.net GRAW players?

Also, if somebody knows (or think he/she knows) the reason for not implementing any "immediate" effect of being hit into GRAW. Please post!

Finally, GRIN/UBI The mp game has potentials! Keep up your efforts to make it a success! (Please provide anticheat, replays, dedicated server tools, more maps, hh, lms, toggle tactical points off (disable the gun purchase system) etc...

[Lemartes]

I agree....alot of time u have no clue ur getting hit until u notice ur health meter or ur already dead. I perfer the method that ghost recon 1 used.

[semperfi_bohica]

The current MP mode is, well, POOP. Triumph the Insult Comic Dog must have been a consultant for Bo/GRIN cause wow, it stinks! (SP is nice GRIN/BO, if that is your game)

1-its like bf2 + counter strike = POOP

2-buying weapons? Please how about we get to gear up first, um, we did for the blasted game, I'd like to use all the options paid for...

3-What is up with the server situation?

4-No gimping, or shot impact notice? Very realistic Bo...right.

5-No throwing of Gernades while even walking?

6-Bo's hype about a great MP experience is like UBI telling us back in Nov. that they were "excited about the delay"...this is as run and gun as it gets without bunny hopping!

7-Give us the option to KIT-OUT as we would in SP...

8-Give us LSM and Seige and Hamburger Hill...

Edited May 8, 2006 by semperfi_bohica

[silent_op]

My view point is from the CO-OP side of MP:

Please GRIN, the ability of the Ghosts to take "hits" really becomes borderline arcade. Mitchel can take hits and not even lose his breath. He can stand there taking hits while still firing off rounds (without any loss of aim). He doesn't even twitch.

I know I must be one of the surprising few who liked the GR1 limp, but at least you knew you were hit bad. It may make your movement extremely slow, but you were a heck of a lot more careful after that. Sure it sucks getting limped on a 1hour mission. It would be even worse on a GR:AW 2hour mission, but act as a team and protect your wounded. Now the mission would have gotten that much more challenging. Protect your wounded and complete the mission or request extract.

Bo, you told us many times about the no limping in GR:AW. As it stands now, the stamina does not have any real affect on the Ghosts. I can equip a Zeus, SCAR L (fully modded), and pistol, without any affect on my running speed or stamina. Sure it can turn red. Then what? I've seen CO-OP players on GameSpy walk into enemy fire and take countless hits ( I can hear the rounds tearing into them) and still make a kill. After that, they just "walk it off" and move onto another sloppy engagement. If they had been killed as fast and easily as the tangos (which is more in line with the "one shot one kill philosophy"), they wouldn't be so sloppy about firing out in the open.

There were times when I've been flanked and flanked really well by tangos. Those tangos should have stopped Mitchel DEAD. Instead, I just got up and sprinted away (with a full red "health bar") to safety. Those tangos should have gotten that kill. That kind of stamina is fine as an optional setting for an "arcade" mode, but not for playing on "HARD".

silent_op

[ig.]

hell of a lot more important things to fix/add/work on

Edited May 8, 2006 by ig.

[silent_op]

hell of a lot more important things to fix/add/work on

In that case, it should be a very simple "piece of cake" to fix/add/work along with the other problems.

silent_op

Edited May 8, 2006 by silent_op

[Hacksaww]

I've been playing BF2 for the past year, and one of the things I was hoping for better damage effects when you get hit than in BF2 (like in [GR]). However, I'm dissapointed to find out that this is not the case whatsoever. I think that the MP needs a serious overhauling before I can think about recommending it to current BF2 players (which despite its bugs is still a decent MP game).

[Warmaster]

These are great points...

A few things I have noticed:

No control by host in the server..ie. you cannot change the map from in-game, cannot change time settings or kick somoene from server and if anyone has figured out how to do this please let me know...

as stated, inability to kit up is unrealistic. I am in the military and if I am not told what to bring, then I get to choose before the mission wether it is a maintenance mission or a freakin lets go kill mission. I thought this was supposed to be a realistic game? If so then let us have some more realism.

I love this game...but I don't like hackers and cheaters and I am already seeing screenshots posted of people hacking..this game hasn't even been out a week and it has been hacked (as expected) so where is the AC support? I thought that was supposed to be included?

Those are a few of my concerns for this game. All in all though this is truly a great game!

[ROCO*AFZ*]

I have to agree there needs to be a penalty for being hit like being knocked around in GR1.

Someone can round a corner and i hit him single shot, he can still open up and straff with his ret centered and drop me on full auto before i can get my 2nd shot in.

it makes the game more run and gun and takes away from the tactical side of mp.

Don't get me wrong i like the game even with domination (still waiting on lms though) and am having a lot of fun playing it.

Edited May 8, 2006 by ROCOAFZ

[Peace]

hell of a lot more important things to fix/add/work on

Well, I think this lack of "hit effect" is one of the more important things...I think the fun of gameplay has been reduced compared with GR1 (not to talk about the realism). I simply just don't get the idea why the devs. did this and I sincerely hope they spend time fixing it. As I said, the game has potentials, and I don't want to give it up yet..

[Whistle]

I will accept what the devs said about it taking too much time and effort to make gimp animations but atleast give us some effects of getting shot. There is plenty of immersion, but why not add even more?

[2nd Ranger]

The AI get knocked over when they get hit, right? I think that would be cool if it happened to you. It would sure as hell make you cling to cover when you got back up.

It might get annoying after a while, particularly if you were still being shot at and it would obviously take you a bit of time to get back up, so perhaps it would be better if it only happened if you got hit while running, making you lose your balance.

[silent_op]

The AI get knocked over when they get hit, right? I think that would be cool if it happened to you. It would sure as hell make you cling to cover when you got back up.

It might get annoying after a while, particularly if you were still being shot at and it would obviously take you a bit of time to get back up, so perhaps it would be better if it only happened if you got hit while running, making you lose your balance.

^^That and the same sort of staggering that happens in GR1.

Bring back the limp or something like it. This would make people more careful about trying to engage too many tangos while standing in the open (and other sloppy engagement techniques).

While the Ghosts can stand there and take 50 cal. rounds until their bodies give out on them, the tangos handle damage in a more realistic/believable way. You can drop them with 1 to 3 shots. 1 shot kills are not rare either. GRIN handled the tangos' damage well.

silent_op

Edited May 8, 2006 by silent_op

[Peace]

Here is a movie clip showing exactly what we are talking about:

http://www.larsa.se/dl/graw/ss/graw_movie.wmv

Movie kindly provided by ^BR^LARSA

See 30-34 sec into the movie.

The player is able to shot back right away, even if taking a bullet a fraction of a second before, like nothing had happened, not giving any advantage to that player who actually hit him first.

There is only a transient "orange flash" and a fade "squeek" sound when listening carefully. But importantly, the player still has the exact aim, he did not spin around, "freeze", or fall. Also, there was no noticable impact sound like a distinkt "thud" or so that you really notice when in battle (as compared with sound in GR1).

Do you feel like you are taking a bullet when watching that clip? I certainly do not...

GRIN Please, there must be some improvement here...

[Buehgler_AS]

The AI get knocked over when they get hit, right? I think that would be cool if it happened to you. It would sure as hell make you cling to cover when you got back up.

It might get annoying after a while, particularly if you were still being shot at and it would obviously take you a bit of time to get back up, so perhaps it would be better if it only happened if you got hit while running, making you lose your balance.

^^That and the same sort of staggering that happens in GR1.

Bring back the limp or something like it. This would make people more careful about trying to engage too many tangos while standing in the open (and other sloppy engagement techniques).

While the Ghosts can stand there and take 50 cal. rounds until their bodies give out on them, the tangos handle damage in a more realistic/believable way. You can drop them with 1 to 3 shots. 1 shot kills are not rare either. GRIN handled the tangos' damage well.

As usual, I think the two of you got this right. I very much like the way the tangos behave when hit, and the option/potential for a clan 1-shot 1-kill hit is clearly there. The behavior of players/ghosts when hit is however less convincing. In GR you always knew when you were hit, and a quick check of the platoon ststus showed you where. Here you may get some "static" on your HUD, and if you pay attention you wil see the color change on your health monitor. I suspect changing away from the "hitbox" system is probably too much to ask for in the June patch, and I think (given the immersive quality of what we have now) there are higher priority issues that many of us would like to see resolved (more than 4 in co-op, no Mitchell is dead end-of-mission, relaxed/removed mission "boundaries", etc.).

As best as I have figured, the most significant change between playing on easy vs hard is the survivability of the ghosts. Hard really does put you in much more of a one-shot and you are dead world, so how you respond to being hit is not as much of an issue

[Jonny Mopped]

+ 1 for getting knocked down when you got hit!!

At least when you get hit on helmet or upper body. And the old GR effect when getting hit in arms or legs.

This should be no problem to implement cause the animations are already there (your ai teammates and ai enemy)

Its ok without limping but some penalty for being wounded is a must! Maybe just slower or no running? (btw: even without being wounded you shouldnt be able to run THAT long at all!! 10-15 seconds, not longer!)

hell of a lot more important things to fix/add/work on

I think this is beside of more MP gametypes the MOST important thing that has to be changed! otherwise there is no GR-feeling in GRAW MP!

[ROCO*AFZ*]

I'm not saying bring back the limp as the animations would take a bit (Grin told me that before) I am saying at least add this... make the guys ret bloom way out and shots not accurate (but can shoot) until at least 1 to 2 seconds after being hit. If hit also take away his ability to run during this period. That would work for now and maybe add animations later.

Edited May 8, 2006 by ROCOAFZ

[Jonny Mopped]

They dont have to make new animations. The ai enemys get knocked down when they've been hit .. the ai ghosts get knocked down .. and you can see it "first person" when you view your teammate via cross com. No new animations at all!

I think it would be the most easy way to implement a noticable effect!

(And possibly most realistic, too. Though i've never been hit by a bullet in real life)

[Peace]

In summary, this is examples of immediate effects & punishment we strongly would like to see from non-lethal bullet hits and grenade explosions, especially for coop and mp (NB! I’m not talking about limp here). I think these changes would make game play substantially more interesting and GR-isch, So far nobody has objected to introduce these changes, in contrast players want them…

When standing, crouched, or prone position (no movement):

with scope:

- always loose zoom view (go back to regular view)

without scope:

- ret. always fully bloom

both views;

- ret./view is knocked off 0-45 degrees (random)

- you can not run, walk, or crawl for ~1 sec

- you randomly fall (if standing or crouched) with a probability of 1/5 or so…(All the animations should be there, see AI)

When under movement (walk, run, or crawl)

- (see suggestions above)

- you temporarily stop/slow down for ~1 sec

NB! You can still shoot! But you are punished by the ret. bloom and possible change in view, or stop or fall (the latter could save you too ).

IMPORTANT Addition of substantially more distinctive bullet impact sounds + moans

We want to feel and get punished when taking a hit!

For those that haven’t played GRAW, or seen the clip earlier in this thread or, view it! It is very illustrative of the lack of immediate bullet impact effect (and transient punishment for being hit).

[rossiski]

Suggestion

- if hit your aim is always thrown off (similar to GR1)

I always thought this was a stroke of genius on the part of Red Storm/UBI.

I can't remember how many times I've been hit and then tried WITH ALL MY MIGHT to bring my aim around to take out my attacker. More often than not, I'd end up dead before I could focus my reticule. Yes, it was frustrating, but frustratingly "real" IMO. You become more careful as a result. Some times though, I'd be able to get off a shot and save myself. I always felt like, "Man, that was close!" and you felt great.

I just watched the video that was provided in the link above. You're right. Anyone who is sniping from a roof-top with his profile highlighted against the open sky does not know proper tactics. The gamer was not even utilizing proper cover...

Maybe cover has become irrelevant in online play as you can apparently take hits and still squeeze off a perfect headshot.

EDIT: Regarding the cover, was it just me, or does anyone else feel like the gamer was completely exposed in that video? Could this complete disregard for lifesaving cover be a result of the zero-effect wounding that's present in GRAW?

[DisgruntledArchitect]

Not to wax about GR1, but I definitely miss the visceral impact and disconcerting sound (that kind of dull thud) that came when being hit by a bullet. It was a great gameplay device and the current "intake of breath and a burst of static" effect when hit just makes me think that Mitchell is actually a robot.

I forgot to put this on my "Top Ten Additions" list for GRIN, but it definitely should be there.

[Peace]

I can't remember how many times I've been hit and then tried WITH ALL MY MIGHT to bring my aim around to take out my attacker. More often than not, I'd end up dead before I could focus my reticule. Yes, it was frustrating, but frustratingly "real" IMO. You become more careful as a result. Some times though, I'd be able to get off a shot and save myself. I always felt like, "Man, that was close!" and you felt great.

Yes! I remember the good feeling in GR when you occationally managed to bring back the ret. and make a kill, before being hit again? Ahhh..so nice!

Yes! I also remember being that extra thoughful before peeking around a corner one more time after somebody hit you the previous peek?

EDIT: Regarding the cover, was it just me, or does anyone else feel like the gamer was completely exposed in that video? Could this complete disregard for lifesaving cover be a result of the zero-effect wounding that's present in GRAW?

Yes, definitely, you no longer need to be stealthy and use proper cover to be successful. This is why this issue is utterly most important to be fixed (even if I doubt the chances are slim as GRIN probably does not look at it as a bug)

As it is now, you simply don't care as it takes normally ~3 hits before you die, and you can just stand there and shoot back with the aim dead on target despite being hit...

To me it is just unbelievable how the devs. could kill the successful concept of hit effect (and wound model) in GR1, only to replace it with some "Halo-style-transient flash" and strange electric "whizz" sound that makes you think your screen is defect...

Not to wax about GR1, but I definitely miss the visceral impact and disconcerting sound (that kind of dull thud) that came when being hit by a bullet. It was a great gameplay device and the current "intake of breath and a burst of static" effect when hit just makes me think that Mitchell is actually a robot.

I forgot to put this on my "Top Ten Additions" list for GRIN, but it definitely should be there.

Yes, me too want that dull thud when hit, that really makes you feel the pain

I also want the punishment when the ret. is being knocked off.

I think GRIN tried too hard to make their own game, and forgotten some of the vital aspects of gameplay that made GR "GR"... Perhaps lack of time???, but to my knowledge this issue was pointed out by mp testers, but obviously their opinion did not have any effect at all.

http://www.aftergame.se//Forum/viewtopic.p...=asc&highlight=

The maps are great, and many other things are great in the game, but this absolutely kills the GR feeling to me and make the game not much different from other FPS...

[IrishStout]

First off let me say .. this is a fantastic post.. this is how most post should go...

Find an issue.. make the developer aware of the issue and then offer fixes or improvments... no bashing required ... this is a very mature post (for a change hehehehe).

Colin ... I really hope that GRIN takes a look at this post.

I have to agree, the impact of a bullet should be felt or protrayed better.

Have no more to offer as I feel it has already been discussed...

Other then keep up the hard work GRIN ... it will pay off in end... this game grows very quickly on you ... with continued support I have no fear that this game can last ...

I just hope UBI doesn't bring out a GR4 before this one is really given it's chance... I hopeing for at least 3-4 expansion packs... lots and lots of potiental...

[Colin]

We have at present some 60 items to look at including this in a list.

The debate on this has been long and the way this post and content have been conveyed make more sence than the normal type of I want post, and as such is given more considered evaluation.

Apart from the list of bugs and requested changes, which will make its way to Grin, the dev team read all and pay close attention to posters who make good clear requests, with precise reasoning.

What will go into this game from the add on ie game fixes and MP codes.

What will go into this game after is wholly dependant on sales.

If the game sales are good, then money is invested to add to the existing game, as packs.

These packs ie like D.S.and IT in gr1 would be done over a period of time.

If the game does not warrent such investment it will be left to the the modding community, who are as we speak well on thire way to getting into GRAW.

We rely wholly on Ubisoft to dicate how much time and effort is spent making this game better in the future after the agreed add on.

[ruggbutt]

The problem with leaving anything to the modding community is to then make sure that all who join the server to play with each other have the same version of the same mod.

It's a pain in the rear for those less computer literate to find and d/l the maps, mods, etc.