Video Card for GRAW?

[Specter]

You have to remember also that you can't put all the blame on the video card.

Yes, the card is important, but only as part of the whole equation, RAM, processor, BIOS settings, how many services and how much crap you have running in Windows, etc.

The 6800 is a great card. I can run BF2 all high settings, with AA set at 4 and As set at 4. The same goes for the Lockdown Demo. I will see if I can borrow my girlfriend's son's copy of fear to run a test on that also.

But alot of people fall for the misconception that the video card is the be-all/end-all answer to everything that has to do with running and getting the most from games, and it isn't.

The 6800GT/256 will get anyone through at least this year's games. Heck, I was running BF2 with the same settings, all on high with a 9800 Pro 128MB.

Computers are like cars, folks. If you just rebuild the engine in the car without doing the rear end, front end, and transmission, the thing is going to blow up right off the line. All machines are the same, computers included, and maybe even moreso.

Upgrading just a video card, may help you, depending on what you had before. But you must take into account everything else too, especially the OS, ESPECIALLY when it is a resource hog like Windows XP.

For example, running msconfig and turning off everything at startup will save you big on RAM. The same with services. Going through and disabling all of your unnecessary service can save you as much as 20-60MB of RAM ! ! Defragging your drive and loose packing it for NTFS will increase framerates. Also, get a tool called LTCYCFG 3.1v.2, and see what the latency timing is set at on your video card and NIC.

For instance, XP sets the default latency value at 248 for these two things. Set it to 32. You would be surprised at the difference.

Performance, especially for video intensive apps and games goes way beyond just drivers and a hot card. You must look at the big picture in it's entirety. Alot of people forget that, and alot more don't realize it.

Edited January 21, 2006 by Specter

[WhiteKnight77]

One thing people tend to forget too with a video card is the memory interface. A 256bit interface is a lot wider than a 128bit interface and makes for a faster card. The memory interface can help bottleneck a video card and can lend to slower preformance.

[Specter]

One thing people tend to forget too with a video card is the memory interface. A 256bit interface is a lot wider than a 128bit interface and makes for a faster card. The memory interface can help bottleneck a video card and can lend to slower preformance.

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Exactly. There is just so much more to think about than a simple hardware upgrade.

[RatoN]

A mean lean machine will go a long way. I can play BF2 at low settings with 100% view distance, even when I was not supposed to run this game below min specs (FX 5700 or greater, and I have a 5500) and it plays very smoothly. The only setting that I had to change was to choose the performance option in my nvidia interface, and that’s it. I always keep my rigs top notch though that helps, and that allows me to buy mid range (affordable) components, and stretch them over many years of gaming. That also places me in a position where I can wait for the prices to drop when I need new components.

That being said, I’m due for a new v. card soon

[Specter]

A mean lean machine will go a long way. I can play BF2 at low settings with 100% view distance, even when I was not supposed to run this game below min specs (FX 5700 or greater, and I have a 5500) and it plays very smoothly. The only setting that I had to change was to choose the performance option in my nvidia interface, and that’s it. I always keep my rigs top notch though that helps, and that allows me to buy mid range (affordable) components, and stretch them over many years of gaming. That also places me in a position where I can wait for the prices to drop when I need new components.

That being said, I’m due for a new v. card soon 

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That's the way to do it. Why waste good cash when it's so hard to come by in the first place?

[RatoN]

wait i’m not done

It is our responsibility to set what goes and what is unacceptable in the industry, let me explain.

Big companies don’t really care about your opinions, but they really care about money, so

When you spend 500$ on a video card, you have spoken. You’ve just said ''Hey, it’s ok, and I’m willing to give you my money for something that will be outdated in short period of time''.

When you don’t spend your money, or less money, you’ve said ''No, this is too expensive and I will not go along with your little scam there my friend, better luck next time''.

Money talks, and…

[semjonov]

The moment people started to cough out $700 was a bad day for the rest of us. Just that 512MB gtx cards are very hard to find because the rare ones that show up get bought the moment they hit the shelfes just say: "We can charge as much as we wan´t, people will buy it anyway".

Well, and about the 6800gt/gs again, I am shure they will get you through the year, but with low graphic settings, don´t expect miracles. And also some people will play anything at 20fps and think that it is smooth, well, it ain´t for me! Of course if you wan´t to play BF2 it will work, but BF2 is NOT one of the most demanding games, try COD2 and FEAR, jikes, they make most computers cry...

[Logos]

The 6800 is a great card.  I can run BF2 all high settings, with AA set at 4 and As set at 4.

 

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At what res? 1024x768? It's a little misleading to claim "all high settings" when your resolution setting is not that high.

But alot of people fall for the misconception that the video card is the be-all/end-all answer to everything that has to do with running and getting the most from games, and it isn't.

←

Correct. The videocard is not the BE-ALL/END-ALL to everything with videogames, but it IS the single MOST important thing. You talk about it like it's a secondary concern, then pimp Windows settings? C'mon, man.

--Logos

[smokin]

If LD is an indication of what to expect, my now old 9800pro runs this game really well. I got everything set to high and it runs well. Everything cept shadows are on low, I havnt tried it on heigh yet, but Im happy with it the way it looks already.

[Logos]

If LD is an indication of what to expect, my now old 9800pro runs this game really well. I got everything set to high and it runs well. Everything cept shadows are on low, I havnt tried it on heigh yet, but Im happy with it the way it looks already.

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LD is based on the GR engine. I would expect that even a 9600pro would run it.

[Specter]

The 6800 is a great card.  I can run BF2 all high settings, with AA set at 4 and As set at 4.

 

←

At what res? 1024x768? It's a little misleading to claim "all high settings" when your resolution setting is not that high.

But alot of people fall for the misconception that the video card is the be-all/end-all answer to everything that has to do with running and getting the most from games, and it isn't.

←

Correct. The videocard is not the BE-ALL/END-ALL to everything with videogames, but it IS the single MOST important thing. You talk about it like it's a secondary concern, then pimp Windows settings? C'mon, man.

--Logos

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Well, let's just agree to disagree then.

I know the video card to be NOT the single most important aspect of a gaming setup, based on professional experience. But it is a common misconception that people fall into.

And I play at 1152X864, everything on high.

If you have money to burn, and go out and drop 400-500 dollars everytime you want to play a game, that's cool. Most can't afford to do that.

Most of us also know that you don't need over 60-80 FPS to play a game, as your eye can't really tell the difference past that.

Bottom line is, if you have money to burn, and want to buy a 500 dollar video card every 6 months, more power to you. Most of us would rather save that money for other things that will make just as big an impact on the games, such as RAM, and would also save the money to build a better rig as a whole.

But saying that you have to go out and buy a 500 dollar video card just to enjoy a game is totally off base, and bad advice to give to folks that aren't tech savvy.

The video card is important, true. But it isn't the most important, nor is it the only solution. Understanding your PC and OS will dispell alot of these hyped up myths being spread just to get people to go out and buy hardware when they really don't need to.

And if you knew anything about me at all, you would know that the last thing I would do is "pimp" Winblows anything.

I "pimp" Linux. Winblows sucks. But 15 years as a computer professional has taught me a few things, and one of them is that you don't have to go out and buy a new video card everytime a new game comes out to enjoy it.

[RatoN]

i find that having a good mobo as a foundation for a gaming rig helps. Don’t ask me why. Maybe it as to do with the on board chip or the bios or both, that causes a faster data transfer from/to components. I have seen people having strange video issues with strange mobos. Me, I always buy good mobos for my rigs, and have little or no problems. What I’m trying to say is, don’t neglect the mobo, if that thing is not 100%, nothing will work properly.

Also, in game sounds can cause lag. Yes I’m serious. I have notice that playing Far Cry. All was smooth until The Catacombs level; too much jungle noise caused my rig to lag severely. I later confirm that observation with a custom map that somebody had created, that had a clear cut jungle sounds zone. So a sound card might help a rig, it all depends on the rig and the game played.

@ Semjonov

Very true, F.E.A.R. and also Quake4 are a nightmare to run. I had to run them at 600 x 800. Total humiliation, though that brought back some nice memories of when I tried to run Tomb Raider on my 486 with a 2 meg video card. (loll) How did we get to this point? –anywayz

- Just remember that a comp is a closed circuit.

- Don’t neglect the building foundation of a PC

Edit:

both me and Specter use MSI mobos. Though Asus and Gigabyte are good mobos, we seem to get more out of a video card then most from the looks of it. Maybe unrelated coincidences or there is something to be understood here, but what, I’m not sure.

Like 2 video card drivers with not much difference between the two, the result will range from complete disaster to perfect functionality. Maybe the same is true for hardware?

Little noticeable difference yet, when firing up demanding applications such as games, a more coherent data transfer can be observed in the form of peripherals performances. (?)

Edited January 22, 2006 by RatoN

[semjonov]

The biggest difference beween mainboard manufacturers are usuall just memory compatibility and overclocking options. And i must also disagree on the part that the video card is not the most important thing in the setup. I really think it is, if you play games. Of course a high-end card doesnt help if the rest of the stuff is crap, you need a balance.

I haven´t even played the Lockdown demo, but it didn´t excactly look like a 2006 game to me, the screens I seen (Maybe just old ones?) didn´t even have shadows on the characters and the rest looked a bit old, but maybe I just have to check around more.

[Dannik]

I haven´t even played the Lockdown demo

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While off topic to the thread, I do think you should give the demo a go. It's built on the GR engine, with some huge upgrades, while still being playable on moderate systems. The gameplay feels (to me) more like classic R6 with modern options, as opposed to Rogue Spear/BT/RvS's sequel. Take that as you may.

Give it a try, if bandwidth allows. I think it's flawed, but not in a way that undermines it's potential as a game, and an R6 sequel.

[Cpl Ledanek]

I haven´t even played the Lockdown demo

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While off topic to the thread, I do think you should give the demo a go. It's built on the GR engine, with some huge upgrades, while still being playable on moderate systems. The gameplay feels (to me) more like classic R6 with modern options, as opposed to Rogue Spear/BT/RvS's sequel. Take that as you may.

Give it a try, if bandwidth allows. I think it's flawed, but not in a way that undermines it's potential as a game, and an R6 sequel.

←

if Lockdown is an indication to GRAW, WHICH IS NOT--GIT OFF ME....I too take a stand on saving your holiday money. Wait till the end of summer when retail stores or even online store start dropping their prices before kiddies get back to school. The 6600GT and 6800's are running fine on most games. I played Lockdown on 6600GT (not my SLI, but on my AGP mobo) with my definition of bling--like Specter said, can't tell the difference between a 35fps to 60fps as long as there are no hiccups IN YOUR GAME.

As far as board goes, here's my take on Asus A8N-SLI dex AND READ THE ADVICE OF PPL. Some ppl love BMW some love Mercedez Benz. Some love Asus, some love MSI or DFI. Learn whats your preferrence. What do you intend to do with your PC. I might go MSI next time. Or if I don't get a BMW for my midlife crisis, I just might head on down the yellow brick road leading to DFI or Gigabyte--since them folk love yellow for some reason. I almost went DFI since the number of modding/OC'ing features outnumbers Asus. But then again, after putting the alcohol down, I had a moment of clarity---I DON'T KNOW JACK about OC'ING!

I'm on Raton and Specter side about building a PC around a good mobo. Its the center of your Chi.

Or wait for other ppl's mistake , learn from it, then you'll know what NOT TO GET.

[Logos]

But then again, after putting the alcohol down, I had a moment of clarity---I DON'T KNOW JACK about OC'ING!

I'm on Raton and Specter side about building a PC around a good mobo.  Its the center of your Chi.

←

If I were going to overclock ( I was ), I would get a DFI ( I did ). When DFI wanted to move into the enthusiast market, they rolled a truckload of money up to the home of Oskar Wu, who was then the head engineer at Abit and responsible for Abit's success with the overclocking community, and DFI stole him. DFI has been king of the overclocking boards since.

If I were not worried about overclocking, any of the other first-tiers is solid. MSI, Asus, and Gigabyte all make quality boards. Look at what features you want and price.

Also, semjonov said earlier that the main difference between the mobo manufacturers is "just memory compatibility and overclocking options." Different mobos offer different features, but beyond those chosen feature sets, they are NOT all pretty much the same. You can have all the overclocking options you want, for example, and if the components on the board won't handle it, the mobo still won't overclock well. And there's your big difference between manufacturers: the quality of the components used.

For example, not all capacitors are made the same. There may be people here who remember Gainward's 4200Ti and the few cents they saved on four crappy capacitors that ended up in "pink screens of death" during cold weather and a subsequent incredibly expensive recall. In another example, Abit, shortly after Oskar Wu left, started using cheap capacitors on motherboards and their overall stability and overclockability suffered immensely. This is reason enough to stick with the first tiers, namely MSI, Asus, and Gigabyte (DFI for overclocking)-- you can generally trust that they're using quality parts.

The one thing here that no one has mentioned is power supplies. This is one of the most important and most often overlooked components of any system. Any problem you can have with a computer, from hardware to software, can be the apparent problem, or a power supply problem in disguise. Spend the money on a high-quality power supply -- Enermax, OCZ Powerstream, Seasonic, or PCP&C would be my recommendations.

--Logos

[WhiteKnight77]

Also, in game sounds can cause lag. Yes I’m serious. I have notice that playing Far Cry. All was smooth until The Catacombs level; too much jungle noise caused my rig to lag severely. I later confirm that observation with a custom map that somebody had created, that had a clear cut jungle sounds zone. So a sound card might help a rig, it all depends on the rig and the game played.

←

There is a way to combat sound induced lag and this was proven with GR. Onboard sound uses the CPU to process sounds when one does not have an add-in sound card. Adding a sound card will remove that strain, but it has to be a sound card with it's own DSP. Getting a host based sound card (one that still uses the CPU for audio processing) is no better than onboard sound. Creative's Sound Blaster cards have their own DSP that processes the sound themselves to relieve the CPU of such duties.

[semjonov]

"And there's your big difference between manufacturers: the quality of the components used.

For example, not all capacitors are made the same. There may be people here who remember Gainward's 4200Ti and the few cents they saved on four crappy capacitors that ended up in "pink screens of death" during cold weather and a subsequent incredibly expensive recall. In another example, Abit, shortly after Oskar Wu left, started using cheap capacitors on motherboards and their overall stability and overclockability suffered immensely. This is reason enough to stick with the first tiers, namely MSI, Asus, and Gigabyte (DFI for overclocking)-- you can generally trust that they're using quality parts."

Well actually you could probably make a long list of mainboard manufacturers that have use bad condensators. Some changed to the cheaper ones thinking that they would save a couple of bucks and some accidently bought pirated when they thought they bought quality, if I remember correctly.

[Specter]

You guys can sit here and debate capacitors, condensers, resistors, etc...all day long.

It all still boils down to a few simple things.

One, you have to remember that the majority of people using computers don't care about all of that crap. The majority of computer users aren't using high performance gaming rigs, but they are still enjoying games. Now you have to ask yourself why.

All the super hardware and techno-knowledge in the world is great, if you have it, and if you understand it. The majority of PC users don't. The majority of PC users also don't go out and start buying up performance parts so they can play games. So, knowing this, how is it they enjoy all of these games, without dropping 400-1000 dollars every 6 months?

It just proves my point, and the point of others like Raton and Ledanek, that it isn't necessary to do so, and that there are other things you can do besides buy hardware to get a game to perform well, as long as what you are using is halfway current.

Believe it or not, the hardcore PC gamer and over-clocker is still the minority. The majority of PC users who ALSO play games on their PC's, use them mainly for something else. And most people don't want to spemnd what they would spend on a car, on their PC. Most wouldn't spend more than 3000 every couple of years. They will buy a good PC for 1500-3000 every 3 years or so. Hell, I only spend 1500 or so every 3 years. I have never had a PC for less than 3 years. And have managed to always be able to play the latest and greatest games.

I can run all these games with great frames, no over-clocking, using value RAM, and stay one to two generations behind on video cards. And I can do it by looking at the WHOLE picture, not just the video card.

The fact is, there are still alot more practical PC users out there that need advice from that angle, than there are hardcore performance, "go out and spend all your money every 6 months on hardware" junkies. Yes, there is definitely a performance calling. There always will be. But it's going to be a long time before that is the majoity.

Edited January 23, 2006 by Specter

[Snake@War]

I haven´t even played the Lockdown demo

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While off topic to the thread, I do think you should give the demo a go. It's built on the GR engine, with some huge upgrades, while still being playable on moderate systems.

←

I have played the demo, and wasn't impressed, HOWEVER, if Lockdown is any indicator how GRAW will run, I have a Saphire Radeon 9600 256MB card, gig of RAM, and 3.0 HT P4, and I can play the game @1024*768 with everything at High detail except for shadows at low, and I get 40+ FPS.

Shadows are my "card killer."

[Logos]

Believe it or not, the hardcore PC gamer and over-clocker is still the minority.  The majority of PC users

←

This thread isn't an open letter to the world. It's a response to a person putting together a new PC, and it's a new PC for highend games. He asked for opinions. If you're advising the "majority" of computer users, you're in the wrong thread. If you dazzle this individual with your knowledge and insight, I'm sure he'll listen to you, buy a 6800GT, and validate your own purchase.

And why we're on the topic, my recommendation was the 7800GT. That's a $300 part, and that's cheaper than the 6800GT at the time of its release. How much did you pay for your 6800? No one active in this thread is recommending a $500 card, much less the $400 -- $1000 you stated in that last post. You've put words in others' mouths more than once.

And, BTW, "we'll have to agree to disagree" is usually a way to end an argument, not a segway into your next phase after everyone else stops arguing. Think about it. Let it go. Agree to disagree, as you said.

--Logos

Edited January 23, 2006 by Logos

[Specter]

Believe it or not, the hardcore PC gamer and over-clocker is still the minority.  The majority of PC users

←

This thread isn't an open letter to the world. It's a response to a person putting together a new PC, and it's a new PC for highend games. He asked for opinions. If you're advising the "majority" of computer users, you're in the wrong thread. If you dazzle this individual with your knowledge and insight, I'm sure he'll listen to you, buy a 6800GT, and validate your own purchase.

And why we're on the topic, my recommendation was the 7800GT. That's a $300 part, and that's cheaper than the 6800GT at the time of its release. How much did you pay for your 6800? No one active in this thread is recommending a $500 card, much less the $400 -- $1000 you stated in that last post. You've put words in others' mouths more than once.

And, BTW, "we'll have to agree to disagree" is usually a way to end an argument, not a segway into your next phase after everyone else stops arguing. Think about it. Let it go. Agree to disagree, as you said.

--Logos

←

My post wasn't an argument, nor was it directed at you. At least not the last one, anyway.

And I haven't put any words in anyone's mouth. The fact is, I will always try to save people some money.

I'm sorry you don't agree with my stance. but I'm sure you'll get over it.

My statement to "agree to disagree" was directed at you. Since I made that statement, I haven't made another post directed at you or about you. So, as you can plainly see, there was, nor is there any argument, nor any continuing discussion with you over this subject.

And since he did ask opinions, he got mine, plain and simple. It just didn't happen to be the same as yours.

And I paid only 195.00 for my 6800GT. Also, they make the 6800GT for both buses, AGP and PCIe.

Edited January 23, 2006 by Specter

[Logos]

My post wasn't an argument, nor was it directed at you.  At least not the last one, anyway.

My statement to "agree to disagree" was directed at you.  Since I made that statement, I haven't made another post directed at you or about you.  So, as you can  plainly see, there was, nor is there any argument, nor any continuing discussion with you over this subject.

←

Very cool. Since that post I was responding to started off with an address of the capacitor discussion (which, honestly, was a little off-topic since it wasn't even talking about the videocard question anymore) , and I was the one who started off the capacitor discussion, it seemed to me that you were addressing me directly. My mistake. No harm; no foul.

BTW, with the exception of the fact that I don't buy value RAM because/and I DO overclock, our hardware purchases probably aren't that far apart. At the very beginning of this thread, fourth post, I recommended:

7800GT if you can afford it.  If not -- 6800GT. And if not a 6800GT, pm and we'll talk about a 6600GT.

--Logos

←

That 6600GT is what I'm playing on now, BTW. I've had it for over a year. The 7800GT is my next purchase.

I generally recommend, for gaming machines, two steps off the absolute highend, which the 7800GT is, and, importantly, if money permits.

--Logos

Edited January 23, 2006 by Logos

[Logos]

I was thinking about some of the comments in this post, by me and others, and I want to run a little test.

I will buy a 7800GT either this Friday (payday) or two Fridays after that. Once that's done, I'm going to run some BF2/FEAR tests with the 6600GT vs. the 7800GT, and I will run all the tests at different processing speeds (Athlon64 from 1.8 -- 2.7), and with different memory speeds (DDR400 -- 600), both with 528MB of RAM and 1GB. This will be far from comprehensive, only using two cards, but these two cards should provide a decent range across today's cards, and it should provide some insight into what we've been talking about in this thread.

Would it be evil to buy a 6800GT at BestBuy, add it into the tests, then return it?

--Logos

[DeanJP10]

For the Nvidia Chipset, what is the difference from the GT, GS, XT, Ultra?