Hoak Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 While not a huge fan of Vietnam genre of realism games, I do like the nFusion engine, even though some consider it 'trashy' -- I think it has more grit and feel then the GR/RSE engine, and if you've seen Line Of Sight: Vietnam you know it can render dense jungle, better then a lot of other games, i.e. without the shader crawl and jitter of Vietcong, or the plastic Disney Land density of Far Cry and the Console versions of GR2... The nFusion engine also has pretty damn good net-code, and doesn't require an SLI system to render it's candy. Elite Warriors: Vietnam is based on missions of the Studies & Observations Group (not to be confused with the contemporary use/misuse of the SOG acronym for Special Operations Group)... Like Line Of Sight Vietnam, this game is an MP Squad Tactical Shooter that offers 3rd PP and FPP as options, looks like it's even more refined then LOS, and this one has had Major John L. Plaster on as a consultant who's hella lot better authority (and author) than Tommy Ceee -- and he gives the game a favorable nod for realism and sophistocation... I love that the makers of nFusion engine games are low fanfare, low hype and bluster -- and deliver these 'value games' that truly are a lot of bang for the buck... Linkage: ¬ nFusion Interactive ¬ Temporary Developer EWV Page ¬ Screenshots... ¬ More Screenshots ¬ More Screenshots (three pages) What's really cool is Destiner Games (Developers of Close Combat First To Fight) "Bold" publishing arm is going going to handle publishing of Elite Warriors: Vietnam... Maybe this will help them get out from under the 'value game' rap... If you are as I am getting sick of the weird "Clancy Franchise" hype, raw and rough treatment by Ubi, and the bizarre behavior of some of their apologist Pets... Give these guys who obviously love the genera your money ' ¬ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old_Geezer Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Nice find! In particular this excerpt from the features list caught my eye: "The RTS-like "Overhead Command Mode" makes giving your squad complex orders a breeze. Hit the assigned key and the camera zooms out, allowing control over the squad with mouse commands similar to an RTS game. " I love any FPS that allows me to play god too. and this one caught my eye too "After each mission you are given a score based on your performance, with the top ten scores saved to encourage re-play using different tactics. " Thanks for the info....will be keeping an eye on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetforce Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 (edited) Elite Warriors: Vietnam is based on missions of the Studies & Observations Group (not to be confused with the contemporary use/misuse of the SOG acronym for Special Operations Group)... SOG was originally an acronym for Special Operations Group. Then later in a vain attempt to become innocuous, the acronym was changed to Studies and Observations Group. Edited January 25, 2005 by Pave Low Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoak Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 You had to quote my whole post to say that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biro Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I'm not a big fan of the Vietnam war themes as it has been done so many times and so many bad times aswell, but this looks interesting. Gonna keep my eyes on it. Any information on a demo yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaDude Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I have really high hopes for this game, this is an awesome topic to base a game on, and with John Plaster, a former CCN SOG vet and SOG's authoritive writer of sorts, it should be pretty accurate. I hope the system specs for this aren't too high by the time it's finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoak Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 (edited) System Requirements: Pentium III 866 mhz 256MB RAM Direct3D 9.0 compatible video card with 32MB VRAM Directsound 7.0 compatible sound card 700MB Hard Disk Drive Space Windows ME/2000/XP High-Speed Internet/LAN connection for multiplayer (Direct IP/LAN) Hope that's not a 'deal breaker' spec for ya DeltaDude! My experience is that the nFusion engine games run well on low end systems, these games are made to be played slowly and patiently (though you can Rambo), so tripple didget frame rates are not nessa... Edited January 25, 2005 by Hoak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetforce Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 You had to quote my whole post to say that? ← No, just wanted the info out. You are right, it looks to be great. I know Plaster and he has been relentless in his labor to bring to light the stories of those that ran the most dangerous ops of that war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoak Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 (edited) One of the things I think is really interesting about Elite Warriors: Vietnam from a game design perspective, is that it will offer 3rd PP as an option (3rd Person Perspective) and a OTS aim view similar to Ghost Recon II Console games, in addition to more familiar FPP which will likely include optional FPWV like all the other nFusion Interactive games. I recall the 3rd PP coming under heavy fire by PC fans for various reasons, some valid and some rather histrionic and childish... I've always liked the nForce engine games, for the reasons I've already mentioned in the previous post, but it was only recently in playing wtih a squad and with a very technical discussion with a fellow game designer that I really began to understand and appreciate 3rd PP and how valid it is in the context of the Squad Tactical Shooter, especially in Multi-Player... Here's a little illustration in the Squad Tactical Shooter Deadly Dozen 2 Pacific Theater: - click to zoom to large image so you can see where reticule is - In this image I'm the team Medic, taking point and have just broken out of the jungle (this is staged but in an actual MP game). We need to make a river crossing ahead to reach our objective but it affords excellent cover for the bad guys so I've moved up through the grass to the largest tree for coverr, pressing myself against it and peaking out to sweep from maximum cover... There's an enemy in the water concealed in tall grass at the base of the tree I'm aiming a (you have to zoom the large image to see my reticule)... The thing is it's impossible to tell how much I have to strafe and waddle to the left to get full cover if he sees me and open up with his MG (which in fact he later did)... - click to zoom to large image so you can see where reticule is - Here's the exact same position in 3rd PP, the first thing you notice is that I have absolutely squat for cover considering where the bad guy is... In 3rd PP just like real life I know exactly how much I have to move to get complete cover, and can't assume a BS kill just because it looks like I have good cover from a FPP perspective -- ie. I now know I'm WFO (Wide Open) and it's perfectly reasonable for me to get nailed from where I'm crouching... I can also see our Gunner crawling up on my right (in FPP the grass totally conceals him even if I turn to look and take my aim off the bad guy, because the camera is too low and somehow misses these details even when standing)... I can also see that our sniper and and the team Captain have moved up and are covering the jungle behind us... Now granted you don't have eyes in the back of your head IRL, but you don't have to turn your whole body, point of aim, and position of cover (as you do from FPP) to take a peek either... Similarly you know when you're completely covered, and have a much better sense of when you're concealed... IRL you know that men have made it up to cover you; you can hear them, smell their sweaty asses, can snatch a peek out of the corner of your eye, feel the tap on your shoulder -- and in a fraction of the time it takes in a game locked in a flat anamorphically distorted FPP view that has less then half the field of view of normal human vision, and no near field depth perception. Moreover you can know their relative positions with much more realistic accuracy. ¬ Edited January 28, 2005 by Hoak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetforce Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 100% agreement with you Hoak. Breathe easy, that wasn't a misprint. The OTS view has been the best thing to come to tactical gaming. The original military shooter for me was Spec Ops. That was a 3rd person shooter and it was a very long time until someone came up with a title that was capable of equalling it. For me personally, a great deal of the immersion came from the simple fact that it was a 3rd person view. It is a case where what seems to be logical (1st person = higher immersion) isn't true. I have been looking at 2 titles for quite some time. One is Elite Warriors and the other is a PS2 exclusive, The Regiment. Not sure about how the Regiment will eventuall materialize, but EW seems to be progressing in a good direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoak Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 (edited) Cool! I was hoping for you to respond, as I wanted expert opinion to corroborate the math and my experience on game-player perspective that I'm currently writing into a paper and a FAQ... One of the sources of of misunderstanding I think a lot of the people reacting negatively to 3rd PP and OTS (in addition to having zilch for real world experience) is that what is commonly called 'First Person Perspective' technically is not a First Person Perspective at all, but a hybrid 2nd Person Perspective; ie.. those are not your hands holding the weapon in game, and to be truly/technically FPP you must either have VR hands/gloves in game, or a light gun to shoot at your screen with (I'm watering that down technically in case anyone else reads this and wants to chime in)... There are also a slew of advantages to 3rd PP rarely discussed that include (but certainly aren't limited to): ¬ player model provides correct scale, depth and position cues ¬ anamorphic & panamorphic distortions are perspective corrected ¬ no apparent movement speed distortion (FOV independent) ¬ greater ease of telling teams apart without IFF icons ¬ single axis aiming machinery can be as simple as FPP ¬ FOV distortion are scaled by player perspective ¬ small level designs look much larger and more correctly to scale ¬ the 'game space' looks & feels much more immersive due to visual cues ¬ model & animation assets up close offer realistic action cues ¬ seeing hit effect from more telling perspective ¬ greater situational awareness ¬ greater team awareness ¬ more realistic and human FOV and distance dept perception ¬ on player damage skins vs damage meter possible ¬ much greater ease employing realistic squad tactics ¬ employment of real cover & concealment tactics ¬ more realistic and natural FOV/perspective One place we probably diverge is that I think that we've come to an epoch in game engine development that allows game designers to put away the arcade game machinery i.e. HUDs and reticules... Reality is not counted on digital counters, clocks and precision aiming reticules, it's fuzzy stuff that people have to deal with under enormous pressure, and that some people flake out even in games is pretty telling just how enormous it must in fact be. For example the Ghost Recon magic reticule could be totally ditched in an OTS view and replaced with OTSIS (Over The Shoulder Iornsights) where we had real weapon vection (movement) to depict how steady of an aiming platform we'd established before friing... One game has already done delivered exactly this sort of aiming machinery And it works just fine, though it's not as well developed as it could be for Squad Tactical Realism... Wha-da-ya-think Hatchetforce? ¬ Edited January 28, 2005 by Hoak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetforce Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 You have obviously put a great deal of thought into this and it shows. Your posts are not lengthy but they are comprehensive. And yes I do agee with you. The two largest issues confronting a realistic FPV relate to peripheral vision. When moving and expecting contact, your main gun is carried in the low ready. A pistol, contrary to movies, is carried gripped by both hands and tucked up against the chest and you punch out as you squeeze the trigger with the gun discharging as you reach extention. Carrying a weapon at low ready means rather that seeing the barrel of the weapon you only really see the butt and aft portion. Achieving that view and snapping the weapon up is simply a matter of a control feature that goes further than the ironsite reflex in titles such as CoD. And you do not possess the SA (Situational Awareness) in FPV like one would in real life. This limitation detracts from immersion. I feel that the OTS view (not total 3rdPV) provides the best replication without cheating and revealing an individual's complete six as in a complete full bodt 3rd person shooter. The other issue is the natural blurring or defocus of the peripheral view that occurs in real life. Even the portion of the weapon I see in the low ready is slightly blurred. Attempts at recreating this view have led to a science fantasy mind's eye type of view where the solution was to mipmap the center of the player's viewpoint. A definitive line is present and it interferes with realism to a vast degree. The best happy medium for the meantime - until multiple monitor programmng becomes the norm - is to utilize the OTS view. BTW, from what title is the last screen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoak Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 (edited) Regarding focus and blurring, I think any and all attempts to emulate this in flat projected 3d games are going to be abortions on technical grounds i.e. in real life we can instantly shift our focus to any object in the near, far and even in our peripheral vision and bring it instantly 'in focus'... In a flat projected game world there is no "z" and forcing a fixed depth of field or locking single objects out of focus is always going to look dystopic... There is however another mechanism of vision already at play in games that is an excellent analog which makes all the issues of focus rather moot as it scales the effect very well -- and I can illustrate this for you right now; focus on the text in this line that you're presently reading, and at the same time in your vertical peripheral vision try to see the text in your post above... Now, this is not the same mechanism of visual acuity that can for example shift your focus from the rear aperture of your weapons sights in real life to see if there is crap on the aperture and back to your target -- but the effect is almost exactly to scale due to the limited size of objects rendered in games, flat projection, and how we view them... The game with the OTSIS is a rather bizarre fantasy game I'd never even hard of till recently, which has never been my area of interest but came up in discussion with a Level Designer about exactly this topic of 3rd PP and OTSIS... I suggested that it would be the next logical step and rather innovative to incorporate ironsights this way as you have much more effective animations effecting weapon vection and control from recoil, climb and player movement. The Level Designer pointed out it had already been done and the game that did it was Shade: Wrath Of Angles... You can download a Combat Movie here on FileFront that gives you a glimpse of OTSIS, and the 86Mb Demo HERE... But I can't really recommend bothering as the game has rather typical, simplistic and limited console control mechanics (no strafe only turn, no crouch when aimed, no lean), and very little dynamic animation and vection on the only real firearm in the game, a pistol. Still it is a fair proof of concept and it does look and feel convincing in spite of these shortcommings... . Edited January 28, 2005 by Hoak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WytchDokta Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 I have LOS. It does render jungle environments very well as aforementioned, although I can't say the same for the draw distance. The draw distance in LOS was very small even when you set it to the maximum allowed for the draw distance. A few other weak points of LOS: -- Why in multiplayer can I choose to take the M60, the CAR15, the Colt M1911, grenades etc into the field at the same time? M60 AND CAR15?!! Jeez, like that's realistic. The same is true of other weapons in LOS - If I wanted to, in multiplayer, I could take the M79 and the M1 Carbine into the field AT THE SAME TIME!! -- Also, the weapon stats are utter crap.... in LOS as standard: the AK47 is the SAME power as the CAR15, when in real life, the AK47 is more powerful than the CAR15; the AK47 is as accurate as the CAR15, yet another mistake; about 4 shots of ANY weapon kill....hmmmm....fear the realism!!; There is one mission where you get to blow up VC trucks using the RPG7 or the LAW....some one tell me why the hell it takes THREE ROCKETS to destroy EACH truck in the convoy; the SKS Simonov is as powerful as the M1A1 Carbine; the Remington 870 doesn't have the correct number of rounds.... Despite these things, it's still an amazing game.... and I made a mod to make the weapons way more realistic...with my mod, I took some VC guy out wth one shot of the CAR15 to the upper torso - exactly the way it should be! Also with my mod I have added more than one other squad member to the team...now there's a maximum of four, not two!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoak Posted January 29, 2005 Author Share Posted January 29, 2005 Yeah, I agree; but then consider we're game freaks, make mods, put everything under a microscope -- and LOS: Vietnam is a 'Value Game' that sells for a song... Re. the draw and render distance in the game; sure it's comes up a little short, but I don't know of any engine that doesn't and doesn't make even uglier compromises for jungle aesthetics that are half as convincing as what LOS: Vietnam offers. I'm not being an apologist here at all, there's a lot I'd have loved to see in this game that isn't there too (like leaning), it just that for a suggested retail price of $19.00 and being immediately available for $9 just about anywhere the game is literally off the charts amazing... The fact that you can mod and tweak it up a bit, improve the sounds and weapon performance just makes at even sweeter in my book... Elite Warriors: Vietnam is supposed to use a DirectX 9 iteration of the nFusion engine that's even more updated, so it's a done deal as far as I'm concerned -- they have my money and I'll even probably pay full boat for the game because I like to see the 'Little Fellers' making earnest efforts succeed. Where are ya Hatchetforce? Would like to hear what'ch have to say about my comments on focus in games... . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaDude Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 (edited) Yeah realism in these games aren't really the greatest. I recently downloaded the the DD2: Pacific demo and was shocked at the weapons statistics. It took like four shots from an M1 Garand in the upper torso to drop a Japaense. I hope weapons realism is taken into account. Also the loadout issue, you could carry a BAR and M1 Garand in the game, plus equipment. The envirionments looked really good and convincing though. Hopefully with SOG veteran plaster advising on this game, the weapons and load-outs will be more realistic. If not I'll just wait for a mod or make one on my own...If I can figure out how. If I remember correctly I read on the forums that the load-out issue has been fixed. Kind of off-topic: Started reading Plasters book Secret Commandos, about his time in SOG. Great read. Edited January 29, 2005 by DeltaDude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoak Posted January 29, 2005 Author Share Posted January 29, 2005 Well ya, hey -- it's a tiny "Value" game company trying to pay the bills; and the weapons files are very easy to edit. The weapon parameters and vars also let you set infinite decay, recoil etc. so you can get some fairly realistic effects... There are also some petty detailed features you can tweak including magazine weight, and how AI reacts to different things like what weapon you're carrying, making them go offer the squad gunner first etc.. Sure it's a bit simplistic compared to Ghost Recon WPN files, but it's also a lot easier to get convincing results that make sense in game. I lurve the nFusion games, rough edges, warts and all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WytchDokta Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 (edited) Yeah, the weapon sounds in LOS are crap. I'm working on updating them at the mo' though. And another thing..... Has anyone taken a close look at the weapon model for the CAR15 in LOS? If you have, you will notice that the weapon model of the CAR15 in LOS actually has the 18 round clip....so why does it have 30 rounds in game? (afaik, the CAR15 in 'Nam used the 30 round clip, the M16 used the 18 round clip). Hoak, if ya wanna help me with the LOS mod you can, I'm basically just updating all missions in the game - in mission one, I've messed about with the crash site: the chopper now lise on it's side and there are several US soldiers dead outside the wreckage. I've also made the MG more camouflaged, now it's hard to see. Mission 3 I've fixed the insertion up so you start with four men, not two as in the original mission 3..... Edited January 29, 2005 by .:Nightmare:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaDude Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 The CAR-15 accepted both styles of magazines. In Plasters book Secret Commandos, he talks about the 30-round magazines being rather rare and required special order in many occasions from the soldiers themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WytchDokta Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 They usually filled the 20 clips with just 18 rounds, to avoid jamming. Same with the AK - they filled the "banana clips" with 28 rounds to avoid jamming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoak Posted January 29, 2005 Author Share Posted January 29, 2005 .:Nightmare:., I'd like to help with a mod but am currently a bit over committed at the moment to promise anything... But a realism mod for LOS sounds like fun, I'm a Sound Designer by trade but other things I can think of that would be nice to see are some tweaks (or renaming) of some of the squad formations to more realistic names or jargon, sound and Foley updates of course, mission tweaks like you describe, rewriting the mission text files and objectives to more closely match the mission changes (and offer better prose), making the AI a little nastier in some regards and a little less so in other (possible I think), and some skin touch-ups here and there would be sweet (if someone could be found that was interested and capable to do it)... Regarding LOS sounds, there's only one set of sounds for each weapon but two player perspectives (FPP & 3rd PP) and there's really no respectable way to do middle of the perspective/middle of the road sound it's one or the other... I tend to think most LOS Fans spend more time in 3rd PP so sound done from that perspective would be more technically correct more/most of the time... But I'm not LOS 'hardcore' so I really don't know for sure... Regarding John Plaster's books, has anyone seen his SOG: A Photo History of the Secret Wars? It's a spendy title at $50 U.S., but I haven't found it in any local stores to get an idea of how good it is, though I suspect like anything with his name on it it's quite good... ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaDude Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 I'd like to own it, but that's a real steep price for a book. The 50 dollar figure is for amazon, plus shipping and handling figured in. At any local store if you were to order it it'd go the 75 dollar figure, WAY too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetforce Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Regarding John Plaster's books, has anyone seen his SOG: A Photo History of the Secret Wars? It's a spendy title at $50 U.S., but I haven't found it in any local stores to get an idea of how good it is, though I suspect like anything with his name on it it's quite good... ... ← Yes. I have that and his other two. But has anyone seen the SOG set written by Harve Saal? Saal was a SOG guy that was also married to Jerry Shriver's sister. And Shriver as you may know, was one of the most perfectly tuned combat warriors this country has ever produced. http://www.thedogtag.com/books_magazines.htm http://www.macvsog.org/ Shriver: http://4dw.net/jqueen/shriver.html http://www.specialoperations.com/Focus/Legends/Shriver.html http://www.170thahc.org/FOB2/Shriver-Jerry-M.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaDude Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Shriver was indeed quite a guy from I can gather on reading Plasters books. Thanks for those two links, very imformative. I might have to look into some of those Harve Saal books, they sound pretty good, especially the one on uniforms and equipment. The fictional novel about SOG called Longshadows sounds pretty good too. Have you read it, Hatchet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoak Posted January 30, 2005 Author Share Posted January 30, 2005 (edited) One of the coolest, and creepiest features of LOS: Vietnam is actually a cheat/developer feature when you type "/cheatcheat" and then "/fovs" in the console which draws wire-frames for enemy AI fields of view, which are in turn animated... Not so much for game play per se, but as a part of a training tool this could be/is really cool seeing even the AI FOV drifting and sweeping areas of a map, is not just eerie but gives you a profound sense of how difficult real stealth must be... Just toying around with this feature and trying to sneak past the AI, is quite an eye opener, and even a challenge/impossible with this aid up where AI have good and realistically laid out positions, cover and fields of fire... .:Nightmare:., do you know if there are any accessible AI vars or parameters for AI FOV, I'd really like to see how this plays with things cranked up to realistic values, though I suppose it could be argued the current AI with 360° hearing sensitivity and their approximately 100° conic FOV is pretty realistic already... Edited January 30, 2005 by Hoak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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